the future of the oslist -- news and a proposal

Fri Aug 20 01:21:53 PDT 2010

probably the first message *not* in teh archives, mmp.  looking at message
volumes in first months of archives, there might be 700 messages not yet
archived between dec 13 1996 message from murli and march 10th 1998, when
archives begin.  might be a manual process.  maybe something that can be
taken up by many hands.  no idea what's involved in converting copies of
messages like that into archive/database form.  mh

--

Michael Herman
Michael Herman Associates

http://MichaelHerman.com
http://RonanParkTrail.com
http://ManorNeighbors.com
http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org
http://OpenSpaceWorld.org

312-280-7838 (mobile)

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 3:13 AM, Michael M Pannwitz <mmpanne at boscop.org>wrote:

> Dera m,
> in my upcoming book I have a section on OSLIST with this note from Murli
> which he sent on December 13, 1996 to 57 os-nicks in the US and Canada:
>
> Friends, OpenSpacers, and worldfolk,
> prompted by Peggy’s posting I’ve set up a discussion list for all who have
> email. Any message posted to this list will automatically be distributed to
> anyone subscribed to this list. This way we can have an unstructured
> discussion going in open cyberspace...
> Peace
> murli
>
> That, I suppose, is the first message in the archives.
>
> Greetings from Berlin
> mmp
>
>
> Michael Herman schrieb:
>
>> what month did the list start, peggy?  i'm wondering how many messages you
>> have from that date through march 9th, 1998.  might be only 300 or 400?
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Michael Herman
>> Michael Herman Associates
>>
>> http://MichaelHerman.com
>> http://RonanParkTrail.com
>> http://ManorNeighbors.com
>> http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org
>> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
>>
>> 312-280-7838 (mobile)
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 2:49 AM, Peggy Holman <peggy at peggyholman.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>  Michael,
>>>
>>> Many thanks for the research.  I hope we can use the opportunity to also
>>> convert the original list messages that date from 1996 that I've got on
>>> my
>>> computer but aren't in the archives as part of the transition.
>>>
>>> And I'm certainly willing to contribute to the $500.  This list has been
>>> a
>>> gift that keeps giving!
>>>
>>> Peggy
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 19, 2010, at 11:05 PM, Michael Herman wrote:
>>>
>>> harold -- here's more.  i you suggested the mailman route i went looking
>>> some more.  i found this...
>>> http://blog.anthonyrthompson.com/listserv-to-mailman/ and it seems to be
>>> the blueprint for converting the archives we have into a format that the
>>> mailman software would require.  so we could blow off l-soft altogether.
>>>
>>> i still like the idea of migrating/converting/maintaining the publicly
>>> searchable archive as first task and then creating a new list alongside
>>> of
>>> other lists that exist, and send messages from all of them to the one
>>> searchable archive.
>>>
>>> so this article i've found seems to prove that it's quite possible to
>>> make
>>> the shift you're suggesting.  then the question becomes... who can do it
>>> and
>>> then, who can maintain the thing, who can handle ongoing support, admin,
>>> updating and all that... and can that be done by anyone for the long
>>> term,
>>> and can that possibly be done for less than $500 year.
>>>
>>> i've sent a message to the author of this conversion guide i've linked to
>>> above and asked what conversion might cost, cuz i can understand in
>>> theory
>>> what he's talking about, but i can't possibly implement the actual steps
>>> he's detailed.
>>>
>>> m
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Michael Herman
>>> Michael Herman Associates
>>>
>>> http://MichaelHerman.com
>>> http://RonanParkTrail.com
>>> http://ManorNeighbors.com
>>> http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org
>>> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
>>>
>>> 312-280-7838 (mobile)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 12:12 AM, Michael Herman <
>>> michael at michaelherman.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>  harold -- the $500 is not really a cost we can get around.  if we want
>>>> to
>>>> keep our 29000 messages.  we need to run "listserv" (l-soft's brand name
>>>> email discussion list software) in order to keep our archives publicly
>>>> available and searchable.  that cost includes hosting... but mostly it's
>>>> for
>>>> the use of the software.  then the question of where the conversation
>>>> continues is wide open.  googlegroups is free and easy, so seemed a good
>>>> first choice.  but we can go anywhere with that.  it's the archives that
>>>> are
>>>> not very easily written into another platform and the archives that
>>>> actually
>>>> require some spending (or dependence on the goodwill of some other
>>>> organization already running the l-soft listserv software).
>>>>
>>>> does this make sense?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> m
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Michael Herman
>>>> Michael Herman Associates
>>>>
>>>> http://MichaelHerman.com
>>>> http://RonanParkTrail.com
>>>> http://ManorNeighbors.com
>>>> http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org
>>>> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
>>>>
>>>> 312-280-7838 (mobile)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 11:44 PM, Harold Shinsato <harold at shinsato.com
>>>> >wrote:
>>>>
>>>>   Hi Michael,
>>>>>
>>>>> I can see you've put a lot of work into this already. I know that a lot
>>>>> of times you get what you pay for - but it's not always a linear
>>>>> equation.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is a web hosting company - dreamhost.com - that offers full
>>>>> service hosting free to US 501(c)(3) companies. They also offer
>>>>> listserve
>>>>> type features - specifically the open source GNU "Mailman" software.
>>>>>
>>>>> This would also provide the feature of full portability (as long as we
>>>>> could install the GNU mailman software on our webhosting company.) And
>>>>> since
>>>>> many of these low cost web hosting companies are offering unlimited
>>>>> storage
>>>>> at their $100 a year plans - it would be quite feasible to also port
>>>>> the
>>>>> full message archive. And in the case of Dream host, it should be
>>>>> possible
>>>>> for $0 a year.
>>>>>
>>>>> Googlegroups is a viable free option, and maybe we can get the
>>>>> listserve
>>>>> style feature at a lower cost per year.
>>>>>
>>>>>    Harold
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/19/10 7:32 PM, Michael Herman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> justin -- glad to talk through it with you.  ring anytime.  and the
>>>>> $500
>>>>> annually would go to l-soft (makers of "listserv" which powers the
>>>>> list.
>>>>> the set-up fee would be for initiating the new list and migrating all
>>>>> users
>>>>> and archives.  the annual $500 covers dedicated hosting, list
>>>>> maintenance/upgrades, sort of stuff.
>>>>>
>>>>> raffi -- one of the things i like about this particular solution is
>>>>> that
>>>>> we anchor one big archive with the 29000 messages we have, but we
>>>>> continue
>>>>> the conversation elsewhere, on a list called 'oslist' but also on any
>>>>> other
>>>>> regional lists, with the content from all of them hitting the central
>>>>> searchable archive.  this means that where we have the conversation no
>>>>> longer matters.  start a googlegroup.  if we hate that then we can move
>>>>> someplace else, but wherever we go, we just keep forwarding a copy of
>>>>> everything to the archive.  that way we're tied only to listserv.
>>>>>  until we
>>>>> write our own listware, we're always going to be tied to somebody's
>>>>> product.  so sticking with the ones that brought us this far would seem
>>>>> the
>>>>> best option.  i don't see any reason to spend anything to convert our
>>>>> listserv (brand name) archive into google or yahoo or any other list
>>>>> platform, and just depend on a different company/platform.  but this
>>>>> way, we
>>>>> only depend on l-soft for the archiving.  the conversations can happen
>>>>> anywhere, starting and stopping in whatever ways they will.
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks to everyone else who's said so far that they'd like to help with
>>>>> the funding end.
>>>>>
>>>>> m
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael Herman
>>>>> Michael Herman Associates
>>>>>
>>>>> http://MichaelHerman.com
>>>>> http://RonanParkTrail.com
>>>>> http://ManorNeighbors.com
>>>>> http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org
>>>>> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
>>>>>
>>>>> 312-280-7838 (mobile)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 6:44 PM, Thomas Herrmann <
>>>>> thomas at openspaceconsulting.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>   I agree with all the thanks Michael – Txs for the work you’ve done
>>>>>> already!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sound like a great proposal to me, even if I cannot make a technical
>>>>>> evaluation I trust you and others on the list to have that competence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the Swedish OSI might have some kronor to put into this
>>>>>> transition/maintenance. Let me know and I’ll put a proposal forward to
>>>>>> our
>>>>>> board.
>>>>>> Best regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thomas
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Från:* OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] *För *Michael
>>>>>> Herman
>>>>>> *Skickat:* den 19 augusti 2010 19:38
>>>>>> *Till:* OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
>>>>>> *Ämne:* the future of the oslist -- news and a proposal
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  hello all, a bit of very important news and a proposal for the future
>>>>>> of the oslist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the oslist -- in it's current form -- will cease to exist within the
>>>>>> next year.  i have been in contact with our boise state hosts and with
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> makers of the software that drives our list and archives.  i've
>>>>>> developed a
>>>>>> bit of a work-around plan (working around paying the software company
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> anyone else large sums of money annually to run the future of the
>>>>>> list).
>>>>>> the softward company has confirmed for me that this (rather
>>>>>> non-standard use
>>>>>> of their software) is indeed technically feasible.  another nice thing
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> it is that it makes the oslist structure look even more like what we
>>>>>> do in
>>>>>> open space meetings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the oslist at boise state is done as of june 30th 2011, they are
>>>>>> cancelling their license and migrating all university groups to
>>>>>> googlegroups.  on that date, oslist will disappear, unless we do
>>>>>> something
>>>>>> to move it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IF we can find another organization to host us as bsu has, then we can
>>>>>> (pay someone to) migrate our archive and user list and go on our merry
>>>>>> way,
>>>>>> subject again to the whims of their IT department.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IF, instead, we choose to fund our own implementation of the listserv
>>>>>> (brand name) software, we can migrate our archives and continue our
>>>>>> conversation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ALTERNATIVELY, or more creatively... we can contract with l-soft
>>>>>> directly to set-up and maintain our archive, control that for
>>>>>> ourselves
>>>>>> going forward, AND set it up in a way that would add to the archive
>>>>>> going
>>>>>> forward any postings from any other email list, like germany, europe,
>>>>>> australia, uk, etc.  what's more, this turns out to be the cheapest
>>>>>> option,
>>>>>> because we only need to pay for listserv software for the archiving
>>>>>> function, rather than for a full-blown list that will deliver to 700
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> at a cost of almost $2 for EVERY message sent to the list (this
>>>>>> assumes we
>>>>>> would pay for the service rather than license and run this for
>>>>>> ourselves.
>>>>>> harrison is fond of saying that we have done all this without a
>>>>>> marketing
>>>>>> department.  why add an IT department now?)  this is my suggestion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and this is what i'm proposing (offering) to do now:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. migrate all of our members to a new oslist at googlegroups (yes,
>>>>>> googlegroups.  people who pay attention to such things seem to prefer
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> functionality there and since our list is public anyway, there are no
>>>>>> issues
>>>>>> with privacy and control of content.  but we will also archive in two
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> places, a gmail account AND a listserv system that will keep adding
>>>>>> all new
>>>>>> posts to the old listserv archive.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. migrate the archive (12 years, i think, and on our way to 29,000
>>>>>> messages) to a new list that will have only one member account.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3. make that one member account (oslist at gmail.com, for instance) a
>>>>>> member of the new oslist at googlegroups.com AND any other lists around
>>>>>> the world.  THEN set that member account to forward everything it
>>>>>> receives
>>>>>> to the migrated archive.  so other lists become like breakouts and the
>>>>>> oslist archive a global community record wall of what's happening.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> it this way, we achieve:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. a new, free, and durable oslist at googlegroups, with all the bells
>>>>>> and whistles there
>>>>>> 2. the survival of the 29,000-message archive in publicly-searchable
>>>>>> perpetuity, hosted by l-soft (makers of listserv software)
>>>>>> 3. the addition of all new oslist and other list postings to the
>>>>>> central
>>>>>> archive
>>>>>>
>>>>>> what does it cost?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. continuing the oslist conversation in a new googlegroups oslist
>>>>>> account costs nothing.
>>>>>> 2. forwarding to the archive of all os community list mail from any
>>>>>> list, costs nothing
>>>>>> 3. migration of the oslist archive and setup of new archive list
>>>>>> function costs $500
>>>>>> 4. the cost of maintaining the archive would be $500 per year
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i'd expect that $500 is fundable through donations and could easily be
>>>>>> handled in the normal course of business and budgeting of the osi-usa.
>>>>>>  i
>>>>>> assume it's better to have a legal entity with a standing bank account
>>>>>> take
>>>>>> responsibility for it, rather than an individual or loose group of
>>>>>> colleagues.  but i'll leave it to osi-usa or another group to say
>>>>>> they'll
>>>>>> take this on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i *think* that any other solution to this results in one or more of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> following... loss of the archives, costs that run to $3000 or $4000
>>>>>> annually
>>>>>> (and are totally variable based on list size), reliance on volunteer
>>>>>> community members to be our global IT department, additional cost of
>>>>>> paying
>>>>>> community members to admin the system, reliance on the goodwill of
>>>>>> some
>>>>>> other organization (which might be generous initially but could pull
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> plug with less warning than we've been given now), no ability to
>>>>>> archive
>>>>>> many lists in our one online record.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i will check with boise state to confirm their support for our
>>>>>> migration.  i'm told by l-soft that migrating the archive to a new
>>>>>> location/list is pretty simple stuff.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i'm willing to implement this, but not fund it.  i'd like at least
>>>>>> four
>>>>>> others to sign on as stewards of the shift.  more would be fine.  and
>>>>>> i hope
>>>>>> osi-usa will be the official steward for donations/funding matters.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i don't have time right now to discuss this with 700 subscribers.  i'm
>>>>>> just one guy, one list member.  this is just my personal
>>>>>> recommendation and
>>>>>> proposal.  BUT... if there are concerns about any of this, i'm glad to
>>>>>> try
>>>>>> to keep up with clarifying questions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> if you think this is a good way to proceed, please say so.  if you
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> something to contribute to the process (time, attention, money, etc)
>>>>>> please
>>>>>> say so.  if you have concerns, let's hear them, too -- BUT if you
>>>>>> think we
>>>>>> shouldn't do something in this proposal, then bring your own
>>>>>> suggestions and
>>>>>> proposals for what we should do instead, making sure that the solution
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> modified (or replaced) is still complete (technically, financially,
>>>>>> etc.).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> since we don't have anything to discuss about IF we should move or
>>>>>> really even WHEN we should move, the only question is HOW to preserve
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> archive and WHERE to continue the main conversation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ideally, this would all happen when things quiet down a bit at the end
>>>>>> of the year, mid- to late-december.  that's when i would be most able
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> support these things.  anyone else could do it sooner or later, but i
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> think that distinguishing our two tasks, maintaining the archive AND
>>>>>> continuing the conversation, is a valuable way to think about this
>>>>>> now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> what can you contribute to this (new) beginning?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> m
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael Herman
>>>>>> Michael Herman Associates
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://MichaelHerman.com
>>>>>> http://RonanParkTrail.com
>>>>>> http://ManorNeighbors.com
>>>>>> http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org
>>>>>> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 312-280-7838 (mobile)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  * * ==========================================================
>>>>>> OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU ------------------------------ To
>>>>>> subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of
>>>>>> oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
>>>>>> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about
>>>>>> OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
>>>>>> http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
>>>>>>  * * ==========================================================
>>>>>> OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU ------------------------------ To
>>>>>> subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of
>>>>>> oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
>>>>>> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about
>>>>>> OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
>>>>>> http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  * * ==========================================================
>>>>> OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU ------------------------------ To
>>>>> subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of
>>>>> oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
>>>>> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about
>>>>> OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
>>>>> http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Harold Shinsato
>>>>> harold at shinsato.com
>>>>> http://shinsato.com
>>>>> twitter: @hajush <http://twitter.com/hajush>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>  * * ==========================================================
>>> OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU ------------------------------ To
>>> subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of
>>> oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
>>> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about
>>> OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
>>> http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
>>>
>>>
>>> * * ==========================================================
>>> OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU ------------------------------ To
>>> subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of
>>> oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
>>> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about
>>> OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
>>> http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
>>>
>>>
>> *
>> *
>> ==========================================================
>>
>> OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
>> ------------------------------
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
>> view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
>> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html
>>
>> To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
>> http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
>>
>>
> --
> Michael M Pannwitz, boscop eg
> Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
> ++49-30-772 8000
> mmpanne at boscop.org
> www.boscop.org
>
>
> Check out the Open Space World Map presently showing 400 resident Open
> Space Workers in 69 countries working in a total of 141 countries worldwide
> Have a look:
> www.openspaceworldmap.org
>
> *
> *
> ==========================================================
> OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> ------------------------------
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
> view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html
>
> To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
> http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
>

*
*
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