the future of the oslist -- news and a proposal

Michael Herman michael at michaelherman.com
Thu Aug 19 22:12:36 PDT 2010


harold -- the $500 is not really a cost we can get around.  if we want to
keep our 29000 messages.  we need to run "listserv" (l-soft's brand name
email discussion list software) in order to keep our archives publicly
available and searchable.  that cost includes hosting... but mostly it's for
the use of the software.  then the question of where the conversation
continues is wide open.  googlegroups is free and easy, so seemed a good
first choice.  but we can go anywhere with that.  it's the archives that are
not very easily written into another platform and the archives that actually
require some spending (or dependence on the goodwill of some other
organization already running the l-soft listserv software).

does this make sense?

m


--

Michael Herman
Michael Herman Associates

http://MichaelHerman.com
http://RonanParkTrail.com
http://ManorNeighbors.com
http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org
http://OpenSpaceWorld.org

312-280-7838 (mobile)


On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 11:44 PM, Harold Shinsato <harold at shinsato.com>wrote:

>  Hi Michael,
>
> I can see you've put a lot of work into this already. I know that a lot of
> times you get what you pay for - but it's not always a linear equation.
>
> There is a web hosting company - dreamhost.com - that offers full service
> hosting free to US 501(c)(3) companies. They also offer listserve type
> features - specifically the open source GNU "Mailman" software.
>
> This would also provide the feature of full portability (as long as we
> could install the GNU mailman software on our webhosting company.) And since
> many of these low cost web hosting companies are offering unlimited storage
> at their $100 a year plans - it would be quite feasible to also port the
> full message archive. And in the case of Dream host, it should be possible
> for $0 a year.
>
> Googlegroups is a viable free option, and maybe we can get the listserve
> style feature at a lower cost per year.
>
>     Harold
>
>
>
> On 8/19/10 7:32 PM, Michael Herman wrote:
>
> justin -- glad to talk through it with you.  ring anytime.  and the $500
> annually would go to l-soft (makers of "listserv" which powers the list.
> the set-up fee would be for initiating the new list and migrating all users
> and archives.  the annual $500 covers dedicated hosting, list
> maintenance/upgrades, sort of stuff.
>
> raffi -- one of the things i like about this particular solution is that we
> anchor one big archive with the 29000 messages we have, but we continue the
> conversation elsewhere, on a list called 'oslist' but also on any other
> regional lists, with the content from all of them hitting the central
> searchable archive.  this means that where we have the conversation no
> longer matters.  start a googlegroup.  if we hate that then we can move
> someplace else, but wherever we go, we just keep forwarding a copy of
> everything to the archive.  that way we're tied only to listserv.  until we
> write our own listware, we're always going to be tied to somebody's
> product.  so sticking with the ones that brought us this far would seem the
> best option.  i don't see any reason to spend anything to convert our
> listserv (brand name) archive into google or yahoo or any other list
> platform, and just depend on a different company/platform.  but this way, we
> only depend on l-soft for the archiving.  the conversations can happen
> anywhere, starting and stopping in whatever ways they will.
>
> thanks to everyone else who's said so far that they'd like to help with the
> funding end.
>
> m
>
> --
>
> Michael Herman
> Michael Herman Associates
>
> http://MichaelHerman.com
> http://RonanParkTrail.com
> http://ManorNeighbors.com
> http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org
> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
>
> 312-280-7838 (mobile)
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 6:44 PM, Thomas Herrmann <
> thomas at openspaceconsulting.com> wrote:
>
>>  I agree with all the thanks Michael – Txs for the work you’ve done
>> already!
>>
>> Sound like a great proposal to me, even if I cannot make a technical
>> evaluation I trust you and others on the list to have that competence.
>>
>> I think the Swedish OSI might have some kronor to put into this
>> transition/maintenance. Let me know and I’ll put a proposal forward to our
>> board.
>> Best regards
>>
>> Thomas
>>
>>
>>
>> *Från:* OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] *För *Michael
>> Herman
>> *Skickat:* den 19 augusti 2010 19:38
>> *Till:* OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
>> *Ämne:* the future of the oslist -- news and a proposal
>>
>>
>>  hello all, a bit of very important news and a proposal for the future of
>> the oslist.
>>
>> the oslist -- in it's current form -- will cease to exist within the next
>> year.  i have been in contact with our boise state hosts and with the makers
>> of the software that drives our list and archives.  i've developed a bit of
>> a work-around plan (working around paying the software company or anyone
>> else large sums of money annually to run the future of the list).  the
>> softward company has confirmed for me that this (rather non-standard use of
>> their software) is indeed technically feasible.  another nice thing about it
>> is that it makes the oslist structure look even more like what we do in open
>> space meetings.
>>
>> the oslist at boise state is done as of june 30th 2011, they are
>> cancelling their license and migrating all university groups to
>> googlegroups.  on that date, oslist will disappear, unless we do something
>> to move it.
>>
>> IF we can find another organization to host us as bsu has, then we can
>> (pay someone to) migrate our archive and user list and go on our merry way,
>> subject again to the whims of their IT department.
>>
>> IF, instead, we choose to fund our own implementation of the listserv
>> (brand name) software, we can migrate our archives and continue our
>> conversation.
>>
>> ALTERNATIVELY, or more creatively... we can contract with l-soft directly
>> to set-up and maintain our archive, control that for ourselves going
>> forward, AND set it up in a way that would add to the archive going forward
>> any postings from any other email list, like germany, europe, australia, uk,
>> etc.  what's more, this turns out to be the cheapest option, because we only
>> need to pay for listserv software for the archiving function, rather than
>> for a full-blown list that will deliver to 700 people at a cost of almost $2
>> for EVERY message sent to the list (this assumes we would pay for the
>> service rather than license and run this for ourselves.  harrison is fond of
>> saying that we have done all this without a marketing department.  why add
>> an IT department now?)  this is my suggestion.
>>
>> and this is what i'm proposing (offering) to do now:
>>
>> 1. migrate all of our members to a new oslist at googlegroups (yes,
>> googlegroups.  people who pay attention to such things seem to prefer the
>> functionality there and since our list is public anyway, there are no issues
>> with privacy and control of content.  but we will also archive in two other
>> places, a gmail account AND a listserv system that will keep adding all new
>> posts to the old listserv archive.)
>>
>> 2. migrate the archive (12 years, i think, and on our way to 29,000
>> messages) to a new list that will have only one member account.
>>
>> 3. make that one member account (oslist at gmail.com, for instance) a member
>> of the new oslist at googlegroups.com AND any other lists around the world.
>> THEN set that member account to forward everything it receives to the
>> migrated archive.  so other lists become like breakouts and the oslist
>> archive a global community record wall of what's happening.
>>
>> it this way, we achieve:
>>
>> 1. a new, free, and durable oslist at googlegroups, with all the bells and
>> whistles there
>> 2. the survival of the 29,000-message archive in publicly-searchable
>> perpetuity, hosted by l-soft (makers of listserv software)
>> 3. the addition of all new oslist and other list postings to the central
>> archive
>>
>> what does it cost?
>>
>> 1. continuing the oslist conversation in a new googlegroups oslist account
>> costs nothing.
>> 2. forwarding to the archive of all os community list mail from any list,
>> costs nothing
>> 3. migration of the oslist archive and setup of new archive list function
>> costs $500
>> 4. the cost of maintaining the archive would be $500 per year
>>
>> i'd expect that $500 is fundable through donations and could easily be
>> handled in the normal course of business and budgeting of the osi-usa.  i
>> assume it's better to have a legal entity with a standing bank account take
>> responsibility for it, rather than an individual or loose group of
>> colleagues.  but i'll leave it to osi-usa or another group to say they'll
>> take this on.
>>
>> i *think* that any other solution to this results in one or more of the
>> following... loss of the archives, costs that run to $3000 or $4000 annually
>> (and are totally variable based on list size), reliance on volunteer
>> community members to be our global IT department, additional cost of paying
>> community members to admin the system, reliance on the goodwill of some
>> other organization (which might be generous initially but could pull the
>> plug with less warning than we've been given now), no ability to archive
>> many lists in our one online record.
>>
>> i will check with boise state to confirm their support for our migration.
>> i'm told by l-soft that migrating the archive to a new location/list is
>> pretty simple stuff.
>>
>> i'm willing to implement this, but not fund it.  i'd like at least four
>> others to sign on as stewards of the shift.  more would be fine.  and i hope
>> osi-usa will be the official steward for donations/funding matters.
>>
>> i don't have time right now to discuss this with 700 subscribers.  i'm
>> just one guy, one list member.  this is just my personal recommendation and
>> proposal.  BUT... if there are concerns about any of this, i'm glad to try
>> to keep up with clarifying questions.
>>
>> if you think this is a good way to proceed, please say so.  if you have
>> something to contribute to the process (time, attention, money, etc) please
>> say so.  if you have concerns, let's hear them, too -- BUT if you think we
>> shouldn't do something in this proposal, then bring your own suggestions and
>> proposals for what we should do instead, making sure that the solution as
>> modified (or replaced) is still complete (technically, financially, etc.).
>>
>> since we don't have anything to discuss about IF we should move or really
>> even WHEN we should move, the only question is HOW to preserve the archive
>> and WHERE to continue the main conversation.
>>
>> ideally, this would all happen when things quiet down a bit at the end of
>> the year, mid- to late-december.  that's when i would be most able to
>> support these things.  anyone else could do it sooner or later, but i do
>> think that distinguishing our two tasks, maintaining the archive AND
>> continuing the conversation, is a valuable way to think about this now.
>>
>> what can you contribute to this (new) beginning?
>>
>> m
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Michael Herman
>> Michael Herman Associates
>>
>> http://MichaelHerman.com
>> http://RonanParkTrail.com
>> http://ManorNeighbors.com
>> http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org
>> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
>>
>> 312-280-7838 (mobile)
>>
>>
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>
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>
>
> --
> Harold Shinsato
> harold at shinsato.com
> http://shinsato.com
> twitter: @hajush <http://twitter.com/hajush>
>

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