Come join us at Open Space Technology World Community Ning site!!
Tree Fitzpatrick
therese.fitzpatrick at gmail.com
Wed Nov 18 03:15:11 PST 2009
Karen . . .your comments are distractingly sweet and lovely .. . but with
your comments do not address Kaliya's very imporant point that when people
do any internet search looking for open space technology, they are directed
to Michael's website . . . but the OS community does not own the site,
Michael does. Your sweetly deceptive comments that someone, or a bunch of
someones, can get together and build something else are disingenuous and you
fail to address Kaliya's point.
We can't build something else: Michael owns the website that is standing in
the way of the OS community from having a collaboratively created,
recognized and used website. I bet it is good for his business but it is a
major block to the evolution of a professional internet presence for OST.
Michael dominates the spot all search engines send people when they google
'open space technology' . . we all own that langauge but michael controls
the worldwide intersection.
It isn't right, that he controls it . . . not for open space. Out of all
the things that should be open, surely open space ought to be open on the
internet?
Lisa's effort is an attempt to get around the stumbling block that is
Michael and MIchael is resisting it, probably because his ego is strongly
attached to it. If he were as open as he claims, he would step aside, open
his website up to this whole community and trust the community. I don't see
him offering to step aside.
Of course he can have his own website . . but the search engines send
everyone to his site. He should step aside. As Kaliya says, we all ought
to own the spot where Google sends people when they search for OST: it
would be a great thing for OST. It's about opening more space but Michael
and his acolytes on this list are being obtuse when they spout his empty
rhetoric.
On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Karen Sella <karen at luminacoaching.com>wrote:
> If someone builds a space—“building”—and invites everyone in a community
> to come whenever they like, but doesn’t give everyone the keys or the
> ability to renovate the place, I consider that place a gift, not an
> obstacle. If I don’t like the building or the fact that I can’t do whatever
> I like in it or the fact that it gets a lot of (well-deserved) attention, I
> can create another building or invite people in the community to join me in
> the effort to create something else—and all without calling the creator of
> the original building a “dictator.” It may not meet everyone’s needs, but I
> kind of like the old place and I’m truly grateful to the person, Michael,
> who created it, as well as all the others who have contributed to it
> throughout the years. If someone or a bunch of some ones get together, and
> builds another place to open some space, extending the invitation to hang
> out there too, I imagine that I would appreciate aspects, if not everything,
> about the character of that building too…
>
>
>
> Karen
>
> <http://www.luminacoaching.com/>
>
> <http://www.luminacoaching.com/>
>
> lumina fr. L. *light, air, opening... ***
>
>
>
> Karen Sella
>
> Coaching: www.luminacoaching.com
>
> Consulting: www.integralventures.com
>
> Phone: 1.206.780.2998
>
> Skype: karensella
>
>
>
>
>
> *The information contained in this message may be privileged, confidential
> and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any
> dissemination, distribution or copying is strictly prohibited. If you think
> that you have received this message in error, please notify the sender by
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> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] *On Behalf Of *Kaliya
> *
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 17, 2009 11:00 AM
>
> *To:* OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> *Subject:* Re: [OSLIST] Come join us at Open Space Technology World
> Community Ning site!!
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Michael Herman <
> michael at michaelherman.com> wrote:
>
> kaliya, and everyone else...
>
> what lisa heft has lauded as fierce love of this practice and this
> community shows up a bit differently on my screen. i've been called
> irresponsible, unsafe, dominating, controlling and i'm probably forgetting a
> few. wow. thanks for your thoughts and acknowledgements about trust and
> such, holger.
>
> do you realize, kaliya, that openspaceworld.org actually does have
> "mainstream" wikis --
>
>
> Yeah - MEATBALL WIKI IS NOT A MAINSTREAM WIKI.
>
> not one, but six of them? we have an estonian wiki! and a haitian creole
> wiki. and spanish/portuguese and italian and two in english. five
> (including one of the english wikis) are publicly editable. the sixth is
> publicly editable, but not obviously so. i use it to manage the main
> resources content of .org version -- because it is so simple and because
> almost anyone could step in and understand and manage the thing very
> easily. meanwhile there are a number of people who do help out from time to
> time.
>
> leaving that aside, you've also called openspaceworld.org a community
> asset. i use this same term. to me it's about community service and
> community benefit.
>
>
> That YOU manage and control.
> This is dominating.
> It is framed as "THE worldwide home of *Open Space* Technology" is what it
> comes up in google as.
> This is a community site and it should be run with community input and more
> then ONE person with the keys to the web castle.
>
>
> GOOGLE and referencing and linking make it a very "uneaven place" and those
> who have attention get more attention and those who aggregete authority (as
> the openspace.net/.org site has) have more power. This is just true.
>
> It is the 3 & 3 top links in google when you search for open space
> technology. + 2 more links on first page.
> The second outgoing link off the wikipedia page (which is the 1st link)
>
> This makes it weather you like it or not a community asset with real power
> to shape and define things and should be run as a community.
>
> responding to the two comments following this about "the internet being
> open space" IN one way yes.
>
>
>
> openspaceworld.org is something i give to the world so that it might
> benefit. but you say community asset and seem to ascribe some right to
> control or manage. so, what do you mean when you say "community asset?"
> and what is it about openspaceworld.org and .net that makes them community
> assets? and what about openspaceworldmap.org and worldscape.org? what
> about the the chinese and korean and polish sites that have sprung up?
>
> harrison uses openspaceworld.com. is that name a community asset? and
> then there are those who've claimed an open space name at facebook or
> myspace or linkedin, and now, ning. is the use of the open space name there
> something the community should be managing? what about those who read the
> book, try it out, learn the way and then dare to "train others" in ost. is
> their use of the ost name something to be managed as well? how do you draw
> the lines between these? how would we manage them? you said something
> about a small group of techies making decisions and explaining them in
> non-techie terms to the rest of the community?
>
> to diane and lori's points, way back at osonos7, 1999 in chicago, when the
> openspaceworld.org site was just months old, michael pannwitz put up a
> blank page on the wall and asked for everyone to put the addresses of ost
> sites. i had just barely finished getting openspaceworld.org up and
> running, really, like the paint still wet, but i stood back and told many
> people that michael's list was what i saw as the future of the
> openspaceworld.org site -- just a listing of other sites.
>
>
> OK so keep it that way as "just a list" not "THE worldwide home of *Open
> Space* Technology"
>
>
>
> so first and foremost, i've tried to make the site link to things happening
> everywhere, like the agenda wall, lori describes. now, i've also been
> willing to host lots of other things, wikis and such, just to help people
> out, but mostly that was before it got so easy to start a ning group or a
> wiki or a whole new website.
>
> i think that we don't need to create so solid a center,
>
>
> IT IS "THE CENTER" cause it is referenced that way on the interenet and
> frames itself as the center.
>
>
>
> but to let the center we have, especially in the quality of the oslist
> conversation, permeate all these other places. we go to ning not because it
> serves us, but because there are a bunch of folks out there who use ning as
> their primary way of working with people. same with facebook, linkedin,
> etc. so to me, oslist is the core conversation, and metanet before that.
> but you know what? metanet and all the gorgeous things that happened there
> over 4 or some years is gone. same with the revival we had for a while.
> and yet, ost goes on. and just like in ost meetings, not everyone has to go
> to all of the breakouts.
>
> if i could secure into the future a single web asset, it would be the
> oslist, for its archives and for its spirit.
>
>
> Again this goes to the heart of diversity.
> A super chatty mailing list is not the ONLY way and form that people like
> to get information.
>
> The OST world wide site should be graphically higher quality - cause all of
> our clients are likely to see it. (I am not the only one who hpapens to
> have a clientel oriented to professionalism and how things look on the web.
> )
> IT should have a diversity of voices writing for it.
> IT should have a more systemic ways of capturing events that people have.
> Many many things should be better about it because of where it is in the
> online reality of things.
>
> Yes I am using the word SHOULD becuase I think it is important and that as
> a community we should take responsibility and make it better. TOGETHER. Not
> begging you to make changes or post things (apparently the proceedings from
> last years open space on open space in SF have not been posted yet).
>
> If you believe in "open space" for real on the web then more then just you
> would be able to edit and post things. You would have an open accessible
> usable wiki that you didn't have to request access to (using more up to date
> forms of addressing spam).
>
>
>
>
> everything else, including the sites i've created, is gravy. and any sort
> of central conversation beyond the oslist feels like a step backward. we're
> already much bigger than a single site. best we can do is to link around a
> lot.
>
> when ost training was new, and even the term was quite new, harrison wisely
> resisted the prevailing logic of certification and control. "people can
> tell when the space is really open" he used to say of those times when folks
> called some strange things "open space". people will find what they need of
> this stuff online, too. even without the oslist and without
> openspaceworld.org and dot everything else.
>
> if harrison had certified it, we'd be in the certification business, not
> the ost business. i think it's the same with community asset management.
> we could easily get into the online practice community management
> business... which would be a shame cuz there's already such a large and open
> group doing such a very fine, while in no way perfect or ideal, job of
> managing itself and its assets.
>
>
> You are not able to listen to clear direct criticism.
> Just spouting back "open spacisms" to justify your point of view.
>
> I must just call it as I see it.
>
> now this is in no way intended to block progress! how ever could i
> block progess of such a large and open community?
>
>
> Yes you control the website. You manage who can post. You decide which
> technology platforms it uses. Sorry but you are blocking progress.
>
>
> anybody can make anything they want and i'll just keep linking to it. all
> i'm saying is that we might not need to work that hard, trying to create THE
> centrally managed always-up-to-date community site. what some might see as
> slacking off or mismanagement in my site is actually my actively working to
> do less and less with it...still working toward that vision of
> openspacworld.org as just a list of websites, as so many sessions posted
> on the wall. i'm glad to stand next to it and tear little pieces of tape
> (simple links) for those who would put something up for us.
>
>
> The Open Space World SITE IS THE CENTER OF THE OST universe online because
> of how it is linked.
>
> It is like a going to a physical event and having on the front of the 4
> story building a GIANT banner 4 stories high - before you get into the
> building to see any of what is there you see this BANNER it makes you as a
> person who knows nothing about what is in inside to go in or not. THIS IS
> WHY I CARE about this site and want things to change.
>
> It is a community asset and it should be managed as a community not with
> one dictator.
>
>
> The Open Space World SITE IS THE CENTER OF THE OST universe online because
> of how it is linked. This can't be "undone" it is the way of the web. The
> questions is what is on that banner and who decides what is on the art on
> the walls inside the building and the plays that get produced IN THAT
> BUILDING.
>
> -Kaliya
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> m
>
>
> --
>
> Michael Herman
> Michael Herman Associates
>
> http://www.michaelherman.com
> http://www.ronanparktrail.com
> http://www.chicagoconservationcorps.org
> http://www.openspaceworld.org
>
> 312-280-7838 (mobile)
>
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 2:06 AM, Kaliya <identitywoman at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> My passion is for an open transparent "open space world" site that is
> collaboratively run.
>
>
>
> Some coherent well thoughtout community deliberated strategy for our online
> life - that includes adoption of open platforms and open standards.
>
>
>
> I am naming a dysfunction a disruption in "the field of openness" in 2
> ways
>
>
>
> 1. Choosing a closed proprietary commercial place for the global community
> to be invited to by world wide leaders.
>
>
>
> 2. That you Michael are dominating and controlling of a community asset
> and blocking progress on updating and opening it.
>
>
>
> If you can't hear that and actually repond to these points rather then
> pointing back at me "re my passion" then I guess you are deaf.
>
>
>
> -kaliya
>
>
>
>
>
> Kaliya
>
> www.identitywoman.net
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2009, at 10:01 PM, Michael Herman <michael at michaelherman.com>
> wrote:
>
> i think you're forgetting two things, kaliya.
>
> first, nobody is or can be "bringing the community" anywhere. anyone can
> invite all of us to anywhere and each of us will make our own choices about
> showing up. no bringing at all.
>
> second, the open space institute is not responsible for your passion -- but
> you could be. if you think something's missing on the great ost wall of the
> internet, just post it up there yourself. you certainly have the vision and
> skills to create the things you want to see. just go do it.
>
> as for ownership of stuff like ning content... have you ever noticed that
> we don't actually own our 13+ years of oslist content? but if they closed
> us down tomorrow (and this really did *almost* happen a little while back),
> i'm sure we'd be back together again someplace else in a matter of days.
>
> meanwhile, we do already have dozens of community sites and sub-sites in
> this community, each one the product of personal passion bounded by
> responsibility. and then a bunch of individual sites that offer even more.
> i rather like that our web presence is so big and open that anyone can make
> an offering and be part of it, and that the whole of it is so much bigger
> than any single site or institute. we're bigger, too, than your proverbial
> bus.
>
> m
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Michael Herman
> Michael Herman Associates
>
> <http://www.michaelherman.com>http://www.michaelherman.com
> <http://www.ronanparktrail.com>http://www.ronanparktrail.com
> <http://www.chicagoconservationcorps.org>
> http://www.chicagoconservationcorps.org
> <http://www.openspaceworld.org>http://www.openspaceworld.org
>
> 312-280-7838 (mobile)
>
> On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 9:19 PM, Kaliya * < <identitywoman at gmail.com>
> identitywoman at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> While appreciate the invitation to this space.
>
> I really object to bringing the community to private service. The company
> NING is just like facebook or myspace it is managed and controlled
> ultimately by a corporation.
>
> It is closed source (the code that is used underlying the site is owned and
> not viewable by us).
>
> The data of our use and the people on it - it is not clear about where it
> goes.
>
> The community life all the information is "stuck" in the system - it is not
> using open standards - so that at some point we wanted to leave NING we
> could.
>
> Ning does not have open standards avaliable for the activities on the site
> and HAS NOT BEEN INVOLVED IN ANY of the conversations around developing or
> adopting those under development for social activities on the web.
>
> There is NO Reason to do this.
>
> I think it would be much more responsible to get a REAL COMMUNITY LIFE
> AROUND
>
> 1) A WIKI that is build on an open source "mainstream" wiki.
> 2) A BLOG with community members contributing to and with different members
> free to start their own blogs
> 3) A robust commenting system
> 4) A twitter strategy for lists and community connections in that medium.
>
> ALL of the above can be built on open source tools
> On servers that we manage and control. ( Or in the cloud but on our terms
> and we can move to a new service if we don't like. )
>
> No corporate entity can choose to turn it off. We "own" it.
>
> All of the above can implement a common way to let members of the community
> login across all of them with one login/password using OpenID.
>
> NING HAS NOT PLANS to Implement OpenID - (or any of the other standards)
> <http://developer.ning.com/forum/topic/show?id=1185512%3ATopic%3A11361>
> http://developer.ning.com/forum/topic/show?id=1185512%3ATopic%3A11361
>
>
> I have been talking about this for well over a year but apparently there is
> no movement by the Open Space institute by the actually developing the
> community tools in community.
>
> *Kaliya * < <identitywoman at gmail.com>identitywoman at gmail.com> *
>
> To: OSLIST < <OSLIST at listserv.boisestate.edu>
> OSLIST at listserv.boisestate.edu>
>
> *Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:10 PM *
>
>
>
> Lisa just pinged me about this e-mail on the list and asked I respond.
> I don't have time until next week to surface and comment fully. I on the
> 4th day of 12 days in a row of "traditional" conferences that I attending as
> a participant speaker.
>
>
> At the core of a comment I made in response to a request for a donation to
> the OSI USA.
> I would like to see the core community site have:
> * a mainstream wiki that has broad access rights. (this is an editable
> website) yes there is currently a wiki - and no it is not a current
> mainstream wiki platform (there for has a non-normal syntax) and it has
> restricted access rights.
> * an aggregation of blogs and another one for microblogging for
> practitioners that pulls in the feeds from all the things that
> practitioners publish in these formats aggregated (via RSS) into one space
> (example from my technical community is Planet Identity (<http://www.planetidentity.org/>
> http://www.planetidentity.org)
> * admin access rights and responsibility held by several people (not just
> one person who if hit by a truck basically limits capacity of the whole
> community to function).
>
> -Kaliya
>
>
> TECHNOLOGY strategy for this community should be done in an open
> transparent way.
>
> It should use "the best of" open source (this is very different then "free
> tools" that are closed source and corporate owned with "them untimately in
> control) and focus on using open standards where possible.
>
> It should be developed in a way that includes the wisdom of those of us
> with tech backgrounds and done in a way that explains our decisions to smart
> people who are "not techies" so they understand the decisions/strategies and
> agree they are in alignment with the community values and vision.
>
>
> *global proceedings aggregator?*
> ------------------------------
>
> *Michael Herman** < <michael at michaelherman.com>michael at michaelherman.com>
> *
>
> *Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 11:54 PM *
>
> Reply-To: OSLIST < <OSLIST at listserv.boisestate.edu>
> OSLIST at listserv.boisestate.edu>
>
> To: <OSLIST at listserv.boisestate.edu>OSLIST at listserv.boisestate.edu
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> here's a new one, i think. for the techies among us.
>
> how would you capture proceedings if you were to have, say, dozens, or
> even hundreds of events convened simultaneously and you wanted
> everybody everywhere to be able to post their proceedings into one
> central place. everybody except spammers, of course. videos can be
> posted to youtube and tagged. photos to flickr. but what about the
> text proceedings? and there is also the issue of a directory of event
> locations. hoping this wouldn't require a dedicated
> application/platform. here are some ideas.
>
> -listserve like yahoo or google group - non-public is a downside
> -facebook group - non-public is downside here too
> -wiki - might be too complex for rapid scale-up
> -blog - might be coolest, but might require moderation
> -twitter - might there be a way to collect only the issues raised
> everywhere? tagged by location, perhaps? could happen more places
> cuz could send from cellphones?
> -blog - could make a post or page for every event reported and then
> let them post comments.
> -just get everyone to start their own simple, free blog and use a blog
> aggregator... might miss a lot of sites.
> -google docs?
> -blog with a single "guest/contributor" username and password,
> publicly posted, with user only allowed to post reports, tagging for
> author and location within the post?
>
> ...this last option might be best, but then we get to the question of
> what if it all really works and folks wanted to post some stream of
> ongoing results and actions. could happen. so the system might want
> to support that.
>
> anything else you can think of out there in social networking space
> that could support such a thing?
>
> i think i like the twitter option, but have no idea if it can be made
> to function in this way. could all of this be aimed at a single
> twitter name, or just tagged with a single twitter tag? and somehow
> captured in a way taht was searchable and scrollable long after the
> first events occured?
> then there's the scenario where somehow we get to hack up a new
> version of the world map <grin>.
> so that's as far as i can guess, and maybe even a little past that.
> thoughts?
> many thanks,
>
> m
>
>
>
>
> I read now that someone wrote in this thread "that NING does all this" I
> should have brought forward these concerns then and perhaps get movement
> going in an open direction. I am sorry i didn't track that thread. When I
> popped up and made the preceding comment I prefaced it saying I was in the
> middle of conference season.
>
> You are all in luck. I just "finished" my unconference season and have time
> to actually give to the communities I love and care about.
>
> I appreciate the care and attention that Artur Silva (Portugal), Shufang
> Tsai (Taiwan) and Lisa Heft (USA) have put forward to do this.
>
> I get that it was a utilitarian choice and was not informed by deeper
> issues and values choices that are being made by using closed source,
> proprietary and non-open standards based tools. It was only done in love
> with the best intentions. I feel I have to speak up because I am
> technologically literate particularly in this area about openness and
> standards - it is where my core open space facilitation work is - with
> communities developing an open layer of the web that is social and community
> driven.
>
> I hope that I can work with others in the community who want to make the
> most open choices possible and a collaborative on a future looking
> online/tech strategy for the community.
>
> Regards,
> -Kaliya
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 1:37 PM, Lisa Heft < <lisaheft at openingspace.net>
> lisaheft at openingspace.net> wrote:
>
> Artur Silva (Portugal), Shufang Tsai (Taiwan) and Lisa Heft (USA)
>
> welcome you to join us at the:
>
>
>
> *Open Space World Community Ning site*
>
> *A gathering place for sharing, learning, resources and community.*
>
>
>
> -- create and host or join a regional group in your own language
>
> -- see the photos of members - including your wonderful OSLIST colleagues
>
> -- post links to photos, videos, tweets or blogs
>
> -- create calendar listings for your events
>
> -- post and share resources
>
> -- create or join a theme-based group about whatever you would like!
>
> -- engage in live chat.
>
>
>
> This co-created Ning web portal for all things Open Space is a compliment
> to the rich and welcoming dialogue of OSLIST and all our web-based resources
> such as <http://openspaceworld.org>openspaceworld.org
>
> *It is free.*
>
> *Come and co-create.*
>
> The seedling has sprouted - let us grow this lovely learning tree.
>
> Jump right on - sign in - create your own page and begin.
>
>
>
>
>
> (*It is new...in its Beta stage...we are still trying out design and
> functions...come visit us there, enjoy using it, share any ideas for
> improvement you may recommend...there is even a 'Caring for this Online
> Community' Group you can join...and if anything does not work smoothly we
> will all learn and share how to fix it..*.)
>
>
>
>
>
> *Do join us in this nutritious and diverse community meeting place*.
>
>
>
> *http://openspaceworld.ning.com* <http://openspaceworld.ning.com/>
>
>
>
>
>
> We will continue our rich and vibrant dialogues here on OSLIST, and we will
> see you also in the Open Space World Community Ning site...
>
>
>
> Artur, Shufang and Lisa
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> * *
>
>
>
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--
Love rays,
Tree Fitzpatrick (check out my new address)
. . . the great and incalculable grace of love, which says, with Augustine,
"I want you to be," without being able to give any particular reason for
such supreme and unsurpassable affirmation. -- Hannah Arendt
2175 Kittredge St Apt 615
Berkeley, CA 94704
510-665-4825
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