Bullying and OST

Thu Nov 5 04:43:41 PST 2009

Hello Annamarie
My experience working with children in OS is that the group functions just
as it does with adults.  I've worked with kids as young as 8 and they were
fine with some minor tweaks for the book of proceedings.  In my experience
the issues that came up with Rose's group are not age related.  I have been
in adult groups where one or two provocateurs upset the groups they were in
in much the same way as occurred with the children.  Having said that I did
wonder about the impact of the principal setting the question as well.  One
of the things that came to my mind is that there are codes of conduct and
respect inside cultures that are very violent.  Respect and violence are not
mutually exclusive.

One of the things I've witnessed when there are provocateurs present is when
people start reacting to that behavior they often  go to the circle holder
and ask for them to address (read stop) the behavior.  They need to be
reminded to believe in the process and take themselves where they have
passion and commitment.  Groups whether they are filled with adults or
children can be very volatile  when they are in extreme reaction to some
belief or experience.
Pat Black

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 5:11 AM, Annamarie Pluhar <
annamarie at pluharconsulting.com> wrote:

> Hi Rose (Hi everyone - yes, I'm new to this list and it's been AGES since I
> was actually in an OS.)
>
> I lay in bed thinking about your question, not having read anyone's
> responses yet.  I note that you say the butterflies were disruptive "even
> though a drawing activity was available to them". Eh, what? I wonder how
> truly open the space was to Harrison's point about unconscious expectations.
> I too wondered if the question was the right one for these
> children. Hindsight being 20/20 maybe a learning is to engage a smaller
> group of the intended participants in framing the question?
>
> What I wanted to add to the conversation, and I'll be interested in
> everyone's thoughts about this, is that the largest group in the OS was
> children. Young people whose thinking is concrete operations, at least
> according to Piaget.  Without looking it up I remember that key
> characteristic of Concrete Operations is the rigidity about how games are to
> be played. The rules are inviolate. It is only in Abstract Reasoning - teen
> years - that the person is able to understand that a game are the rules
> agreed to by those playing.  WIth such a large population of children the
> abstract spirit of self-organizing may not have been the predominant spirit.
> Now, mind you, I'm not saying that children can't enjoy and participate in
> OS, I'm sure they can. I suspect that they need more of a model about how-
> concretely watching adults. It might have been that the balance was off.
> What is the experience of others on this list?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Annamarie Pluhar
>
> Pluhar Consulting
> Results through effective group process
> 802.451.1941
> *802.579.5975 (cell)*
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 4, 2009, at 9:44 PM, Anglican Chaplain wrote:
>
> With 20/20 hindsight, I wonder if the question, “What do we need to do to
> respect each other and get along?”  is/was the right question.
>
> As you say, Rose, it appears that students know (at a cognitive level) what
> to do, but they don’t do it. Which might point to a much deeper
> psycho/systemic/social set of forces (part of which Harrison alludes to).
> I really feel for these kids – it’s feels like they are trapped in a
> nightmare – like one of those dreams one can have, where you can see it all
> unfolding and you feel incapable to do anything about it.  Of course that is
> not an ‘escape’ from everyone ultimately accepting their share of
> responsibility, but it suggests some broader questions to me about what kind
> of personal ‘way of being’ might be nurtured, and what kind of environment
> might  be imagined and co-created. I don’t want to sound trite. It sounds
> very challenging.
>
> What might that broader systemic convening question be?  When it doubt…open
> more space. Think creatively about who might make a contribution and
> specifically invite them. Was anyone and everyone able to come? I am
> recalling Jamie Oliver’s work in the UK where they discovered a direct
> link between the food provided in the canteen and behaviour in the
> classroom. That’s another example of looking at the whole system.  Don’t
> give up hope. Keep the conversations alive.
>
> Also, some places have benefitted from capacity building in non-violence
> training (Rosenberg has done some great stuff on this).
>
> Michael Wood
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] *On Behalf Of *Harrison
> Owen
> *Sent:* Thursday, 5 November 2009 10:19 AM
> *To:* OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> *Subject:* Re: Bullying and OST
>
> Rose – Sounds like and interesting Go. For me OS is very much like the
> Rorschach Test – What you see is what you got, and it sounds like the
> teachers and Principal confirmed that. Not terribly far from a prison camp
> which is where many schools are. God forbid that the inmates should become
> too restless and then get out of control! So of course, the forces of reason
> and right will have to intervene (which they did) – thereby substantiating
> their prior convictions that these “students” were pretty much wild savages
> requiring a strong hand.  Was there an alternative? Probably and it wouldn’t
> have been pretty, but in my experience it usually (always) works. Open more
> Space and treat the students like responsible human beings. Expect the best
> and you might get there. I have worked with fighting street gangs, and that
> was always my approach. It did get a little exciting, but nobody ever died.
> In fact, very useful things always took place. Simple fact of the matter is
> that folks will live *down* to our expectations. That way they can avoid
> responsibility for themselves and their actions. It is all OUR fault! Then
> we can feel guilty and do more of what we have always done (control, heavy
> hand, etc) and predictably get more of what we have always gotten which then
> justifies more of the same – and so on ad infinitum. Or something.
>
> Harrison
>
>
> Harrison Owen
>
> 7808 River Falls Drive
>
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> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] *On Behalf Of *Rose
> Tassone
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:51 PM
> *To:* OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> *Subject:* Bullying and OST
>
>
> Hello everyone. I’m wishing to share my experience of facilitating OST for
> the first time. It was held in a primary school in Perth,Western
> Australia. Surveys administered by the principal earlier in the year had
> parents and students report that they were most concerned about bullying at
> this school. The principal identified the question “What do we need to do to
> respect each other and get along?’ 73 students, ages 8 to 12, 6 educators
> and 3 parents accepted the invitation.
>
> This is what I observed during the OS event: A student was pushed out of
> her group when she went to the breakout space even though she was the one
> who had initiated the topic; students were physically fighting, pushing each
> other and name calling; students who were being butterflies chose to run
> around, disrupt and tease those in the groups even though there was a
> drawing activity available to them; the groups tended to compete with each
> other on how many pages they could fill with lists of dos and don’ts of how
> to treat each other.  The energy of the morning was one of palpable violence
> and two students were suspended.  Teachers who had been briefed by the
> principal to allow chaos at the event, so that children could self organise,
> finally had to intervene because of duty of care issues.
>
> Looking through the Book of Proceedings the students appear to have all the
> knowledge of how to respect each other and get along, though their behaviour
> during the event did not depict this. At the debriefing the principal
> mentioned that the behaviours that were shown are what normally occur every
> day in the schoolyard as they self organise around individual survival.  So
> it appears that the proverbial ‘Lucy’ is more than likely a 10 year old
> bully!
>
> I would really appreciate any comments and/or thoughts.
>
> Kindest regards
> Rose Tassone
>
>
> m:   (+61) 0408 944 072
> e:    rosetassone at iinet.net.au
> p:    po box 358 leederville wa 6903
>
>
>
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