social inequities in a self-organizing world

Fri May 29 19:37:05 PDT 2009

Bui -- "I think what you're saying is that the market is not functioning 
optimally because someone is trying to control certain parts of it for 
their own benefit."

HO -- That is precisely what I am saying. And the net effect is that the
market is not really open -- to say nothing of free, as in "free market"
However, it is still essentially self organizing, albeit with complications
and done poorly.

Bui -- "It is quite hard imagining how exactly how society would look if
space was continuously kept entirely open." 

HO -- It may be hard, but not impossible. But we do know a few things, I
think. The first is that the whole situation is so tremendously complex and
changeable that even on a very good day we can't understand it and so have
little likelihood establishing the rules which might adequately control the
forces at play. We have also learned, I think that when the
rules/structure/controls are emergent from the situation they tend to be
appropriate, and therefore effective. I grant you it is difficult to find
the patience to allow the emergent to emerge and so we are sorely tempted to
rush in with the fix. This of course is our history with our Environment
(capitol E) and the results to date have not been outstanding. But maybe we
can learn. 

Bui -- "Let alone trying to convince skeptics."

HO -- I guess I never try, considering such an effort to be roughly akin to
teaching pigs to sing. Which a friend tells me sounds terrible and annoys
the pig. Yes, I am happy to share what I have seen, and what I think --
fully recognizing that my ability to convince is minimal to non-existent. At
the end of the day I can only open some space so that the skeptics may
convince themselves -- or not. But I do confess to a certain proud joy that
wells up when a complete skeptic suddenly puts on that "Oh shit grin" --
accompanied by the words -- "It's working."

Harrison 

Harrison Owen
7808 River Falls Drive
Potomac, Maryland   20854
Phone 301-365-2093
Skype hhowen
Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com 
Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org
Personal website www.ho-image.com 
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-----Original Message-----
From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Bui
Petersen
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 9:53 PM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: social inequities in a self-organizing world

I think what you're saying is that the market is not functioning 
optimally because someone is trying to control certain parts of it for 
their own benefit. It is quite hard imagining how exactly how society 
would look if space was continuously kept entirely open.
 Let alone trying to convince skeptics.

Bui

Harrison Owen wrote:
> Bui said:" Many people will agree that we live in a self-organizing world
> and even (for some reluctantly) that self-organization is the most
> "efficient" way of organization. At the same time they will say that this
is
> also the basis of capitalism with all it's problems: social inequities, 
> uncontrolled financial markets and the destruction of the environments. 
> They will say that this shows why you can't remove all controls and why 
> OST has the potential of just reinforcing power imbalances."
>
>
> Well functioning self organizing systems achieve that status in part
through
> clear communications internally and with their environment. They falter
when
> those communications are muffled and/or distorted. The market along with
all
> other systems is self-organizing -- but our problem of the moment is that
> somebody (or some several somebodies) was trying to organize a
> self-organizing systems for their own self interest (lack of transparency
> etc). Never works very well, and in our case, it was almost a disaster. 
>
> Not incidentally, I would suggest that Capitalism is only one
interpretation
> of the market. There are some other interpretations -- but I rather think
> capitalism works better than most, flawed though it is. And I also think
OST
> is a natural corrective to a flawed market (and all other situations where
> somebody is trying to organize a self-organizing system). We are given the
> opportunity to see how productive and fun it can be in a fully functioning
> self organizing system. And it all works well so long as we do not try to
> organize it ourselves. So what about all the current efforts to "reform"
> (re-organize) the market? I am pretty sure they will ultimately fail and
> also be replete with all sorts of un-intended consequences. However, to
the
> extent that these reform efforts support passion, responsibility and
> transparency (openness) -- sounds good to me in the short term.
>
> Having said all of the above, I think it well to remember that everything
> under the sun (all systems human and otherwise) has a beginning, middle
and
> end. They come and go. They live and die. Chaos, confusion, and conflict
are
> essential to the process -- and in their absence the process (our lives)
> reaches equilibrium and it is all over. Doubtless we could have suggested
a
> better way had the creator of the universe consulted us, but that didn't
> happen. Speaking personally, I must say I totally enjoy this adventure,
but
> I may be a little strange.
>
> Harrison 
>
> Harrison Owen
> 7808 River Falls Drive
> Potomac, Maryland   20854
> Phone 301-365-2093
> Skype hhowen
> Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com 
> Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org
> Personal website www.ho-image.com 
> OSLIST: To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the
> archives Visit: www.listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Bui
> Petersen
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 12:01 PM
> To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> Subject: social inequities in a self-organizing world
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I have been absent for a while due to bathroom renovations and an 
> overload of work and I didn't get around to thank everyone who provided 
> feedback to my first Open Space. Thank you everyone.
>
> I did manage to find time to read Wave Rider. Thanks you, Harrison, for 
> a very good book. Not surprisingly, I agreed with most of it. I am 
> curious though how you would respond to the following consideration.
>
> Many people will agree that we live in a self-organizing world and even 
> (for some reluctantly) that self-organization is the most "efficient" 
> way of organization. At the same time they will say that this is also 
> the basis of capitalism with all it's problems: social inequities, 
> uncontrolled financial markets and the destruction of the environments. 
> They will say that this shows why you can't remove all controls and why 
> OST has the potential of just reinforcing power imbalances.
>
> I like having discussions  but in this case, my argumentation could 
> improve. Any thoughts, anyone?
>
> Bui
>
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