Seeds of self-organisation
Harrison Owen
hhowen at verizon.net
Thu May 21 05:54:46 PDT 2009
I have always found force to be a blunt instrument at best to be used only
as a last resort and then sparingly. Problem is that it just doesn't work
very well and the long term results, to say nothing of unintended
consequences, are problematic to say the least. Flower smelling, on the
other hand, tends to produce a more measured approach and long lasting
results. So the issue is -- do you actually want to get something done well
-- of just make a big splash and usually a bigger mess?
Harrison
Harrison Owen
7808 River Falls Drive
Potomac, Maryland 20854
Phone 301-365-2093
Skype hhowen
Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com
Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org
Personal website www.ho-image.com
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-----Original Message-----
From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of John Rapp
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 2:26 PM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: Seeds of self-organisation
Harrison,
How do you view coercion? "Force is not the way at all," enjoins Lao
Tzu. But my own experience is that those of us who smell & allow the
flowers to bloom are subject to others who prefer to push the river.
They may/often fail, eventually. They affect a lot, now.
Best,
John
Sent from my iPhone
On May 20, 2009, at 5:19 AM, Harrison Owen <hhowen at verizon.net> wrote:
> Christy -- I hate to seem like piling on -- but from where I sit self
> organization is well beyond the seeding stage. It is in full bloom
> and has
> been for 13.7 billion years. It is just that some people won't stop
> to smell
> the flowers. Their loss.
>
> Harrison
>
> Harrison Owen
> 189 Beaucaire Ave
> Camden, ME 04843
> 207-763-3261 (Summer)
> 301-365-2093 (Winter)
> Website www.openspaceworld.com
> Personal Website www.ho-image.com
> OSLIST To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options
> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of
> Michael M
> Pannwitz
> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 4:43 AM
> To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> Subject: Seeds of self-organisation
>
> Dear Christine,
> I intrigued myself with your images:
> unleashing self-organisation, stuffing the genie back into the bottle,
> seeds taking root...
> Even though I assume to understand what you mean, it struck me that I
> want to be more clear on the following:
> - there is no way to "leash" self organisation
> - its never been in a bottle
> - its already deeply rooted, regardless of how much control or
> ignoring
> is employed.
> I know that an OST event can be shut down hard and quick when control
> takes hold but, of course, self-organisation will not be shut down.
> To me, these "subtleties" are important, because I humble myself with
> them and liberate myself from wanting to figure out the system or
> being
> attached to outcome...helping me to focus ("simply")on attempting to
> hold time and space.
> Greetings from Berlin where the first radishes of the year found their
> way from our garden to the kitchen table today...
> mmp
>
> Christine Whitney Sanchez wrote:
>> John & Rory,
> ......
>>
>> John, what is also of interest to me is when the sponsors seem to be
>> ready to unleash self-organization and once the genie is out of the
>> bottle, want to try to stuff it back in. In those cases, I watch for
>> where the self-organization seeds have taken root, even if the formal
>> system seems to be ignoring them.
>>
>> Thanks for the great discussion.
>>
>> Warm wishes from toasty Phoenix,
>>
>> Christine
>>
>>
>> *
>> *
>> ==========================================================
>> OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
>> ------------------------------
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
>> view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
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>>
>> To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
>> http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
>>
>>
>> Christine Whitney Sanchez
>> Collaborative Wisdom & Strategy
>> 480.759.0262
>> www.christinewhitneysanchez.com
>> Skype: christinewhitneysanchez
>> P Please consider the environment before printing this email
>>
>> On May 14, 2009, at 8:26 AM, Rory O'Connor wrote:
>>
>> Hi John & Christine,
>>
>> I'm probably more practised in Spiral Dynamics that OST - which is
>> not
>> saying a whole lot. What I thought Spiral Dynamics could bring to OST
>> was insight into how we might engage with people at all stages of the
>> process - from forming the theme i.e. someone living in CO/Red Life
>> conditions is not going to want to sit around and reach consensus
>> on a
>> theme. Likewise, DP/Blue and ER/Orange are probably going to have
>> different questions that need to be answered in order to feel
>> comfortable with the process. I do find that people living in FS/
>> Green
>> are probably most open to Open Space because of the emphasis on
>> valuing
>> other human beings. GT/Yellow might use it if/when it is
>> appropriate to
>> the Life Conditions of the people they are working with. They may opt
>> for something else if THAT is what is required.
>>
>> It's not to say that OST would not work, it's just that how it's
>> introduced may need to be tweaked. And again, my caveat on all this
>> is
>> that I have only facilitated a handful of OST events
>>
>> I'd love to explore more about how both OST and Spiral Dynamics might
>> inform each other, and look forward to your response.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Rory
>>
>>
>> On 14 May 2009, at 15:52, Christine Whitney Sanchez wrote:
>>
>>> Hi John,
>>>
>>> I suspect many of us on the list have "dabbled in Spiral Dynamics".
>>> I've seen OST as a second tier methodology that works all the way
>>> down
>>> the spiral. How about you?
>>>
>>> Warm wishes on this beautiful Phoenix morning,
>>>
>>> Christine
>>> * * ==========================================================
>>> OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU ------------------------------ To
>>> subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of
>>> oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
>>> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about
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http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
>>>
>>> Christine Whitney Sanchez
>>> Collaborative Wisdom & Strategy
>>> 480.759.0262
>>> www.christinewhitneysanchez.com
>>> Skype: christinewhitneysanchez
>>> P Please consider the environment before printing this email
>>>
>>> On May 13, 2009, at 12:33 PM, John Rapp wrote:
>>>
>>> Michael/Peggy & fellow OSTers -- I've used OS/WR principles for many
>>> years in my work, which is mainly in & around law firms. I did 2
>>> major open spaces, both for 100 so people, in Jakarta (1999) and
>>> Taipei (2002). Both were very successful on the day, and sources of
>>> sadness after, as the "powers" chose to ignore 99% of what came up.
>>>
>>> I want to try again, as one of my personal missions is improve the
>>> world by changing the practice of law/yers. I'd love to help, and
>>> hear others' experiences with law. And anyone who has dabbled in
>>> Spiral Dynamics in this context would pique interest too.
>>>
>>> Best
>>> John
>>>
>>> On May 9, 2009, at 10:55 PM, Peggy Holman
>>> <peggy at opencirclecompany.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Michael,
>>>>
>>>> I did an OS with a law firm a few years ago. It included all of
>>>> the
>>>> support staff and none of the attorneys. It was a productive,
>>>> successful meeting for them. The main thing I'd say is that we
>>>> were
>>>> a strange cultural mix. They never really felt that comfortable
>>>> with
>>>> me, but they sure liked the experience. As an example of the
>>>> cultural challenge, I often suggest a few minutes of silence when a
>>>> group gets together at the end of the day or on the second morning.
>>>> This is one of the few groups that made it clear that this didn't
>>>> work for them. It just made them uncomfortable. So, after
>>>> trying it
>>>> once, we simply got on to talking about the day.
>>>>
>>>> Peggy
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________
>>>> Peggy Holman
>>>> The Open Circle Company
>>>> 15347 SE 49th Place
>>>> Bellevue, WA 98006
>>>> 425-746-6274
>>>> www.opencirclecompany.com
>>>>
>>>> For the new edition of The Change Handbook, go to:
>>>> www.bkconnection.com/ChangeHandbook
>>>>
>>>> "An angel told me that the only way to step into the fire and not
>>>> get
>>>> burnt, is to become
>>>> the fire".
>>>> -- Drew Dellinger
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 30, 2009, at 7:10 PM, Michael Wood wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I am talking with a bunch of lawyers in a couple of weeks about
>>>>> "sustainability" in the legal profession. i.e. sustainability of
>>>>> the
>>>>> lawyers themselves since they often seem to work under such
>>>>> punishing conditions - depression on the increase etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any stories out there about use of Open Space in law firms?
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael Wood
>>>>> * * ==========================================================
>>>>> OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU ------------------------------ To
>>>>> subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of
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>>>>> ==========================================================
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>>>>> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about
>>>>> OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
>>>>> http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
>>>>
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>> *
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>
> --
> Michael M Pannwitz, boscop eg
> Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
> ++49-30-772 8000
> mmpanne at boscop.org
> www.boscop.org
>
>
> Check out the Open Space World Map presently showing 468 resident Open
> Space Workers in 73 countries working in a total of 139 countries
> worldwide
> Have a look:
> www.openspaceworldmap.org
>
> *
> *
> ==========================================================
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>From Fri May 22 11:02:53 2009
Message-Id: <FRI.22.MAY.2009.110253.0400.>
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 11:02:53 -0400
Reply-To: 76066.515 at compuserve.com
To: OSLIST <OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>
From: douglas germann <76066.515 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Necessity of space
In-Reply-To: <1241711354.6741.35.camel at doug2>
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The first volume of this work has the quote to which you referred,
Christy. Here is a bit longer snippet:
I have expressed the idea that space must be considered an
almost living entity—a kind of stuff which, depending on the
recursive structures that are built up in it, becomes
progressively more and more alive. Of course, it is unlikely
that this way of understanding space could be undertaken within
the confines of a method of observation that insists that
everything is a machine. Since the conception of space/matter I
describe in this book has precisely the character that is not
machine-like, no method of observation which is obliged to
pretend that everything is machine-like can possibly see it as
it is, or acknowledge its properties. Italics in original.
Christopher Alexander, The Nature of Order: An Essay on the Art
of Building and The Nature of the Universe, Book One: The
Phenomenon of Life, p 352.
This work has had me pondering a great deal in the last few days.
Everything, Alexander seems to be saying, has a degree of being able to
evoke in us a feeling of wholeness, of expansiveness, of movement. He
puts great emphasis on the need for going within to observe what outside
is more life-giving.
But I think there is a next step, a deeper step: it is to the between.
He writes of something *making* me feel alive, *generating* a feeling of
life, *inducing* greater harmony: these speak of one (living) thing
touching--meeting--another. It is this bumping, interacting, back and
forth which is the essence of what he is pointing to. This happens only
in the between.
:- Doug.
On Thu, 2009-05-07 at 11:49 -0400, douglas germann wrote:
> Christy--
>
> Wow! You have left me saying Wow!
>
> What an evocative notion--the space is alive. Is this true? Can we make
> it so? Can we at least meet it so?
>
> There are excerpts of Alexander's 4th book here:
> http://books.google.com/books?id=6CIHB3_1tLMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=christopher+alexander+nature+of+order#PPA1,M1
>
> I have found his writing evocative as well. His books are huge, and sell
> by the pound. Now I have to mortgage my house to get these books....
>
> What do you suppose might be the recursive structures built up in open
> space?
>
> Harrison said that it takes a lifetime to explore open space, and here
> for me is a new main artery.
>
> Catherine, I like your image of a porous embrace. How do you see time
> fitting into this living space of recursive structures? Could you say a
> little more, please?
>
> Still pondering....
>
> :- Doug.
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 2009-05-05 at 23:09 -0700, Christy Lee-Engel wrote:
> > Hi dear Doug,
> >
> > Well, your question reminds me of hearing friends talk about architect
> > Christopher Alexander's work, in which he emphasizes that "space must
> > be considered an almost living entity – a kind of stuff which,
> > depending on the recursive structures that are built up in it, becomes
> > progressively more and more alive."
> >
> > So that space can be more alive or less alive.
> >
> > I haven't read Alexander's 4-Volume "The Nature of Order" yet, and so
> > I don't know what "these fifteen properties" are - but this quote from
> > a book review makes me want to read it and find out!:
> >
> > "Systems in space which have these fifteen properties to a strong
> > degree will be alive, and the more these properties are present, the
> > more the systems which contain them will tend to be alive."
> >
> >
> > http://natureoforder.com/overview.htm
> >
> >
> > love & blessings,
> >
> > Christy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 5/5/09, douglas germann <76066.515 at compuserve.com> wrote:
> > Hi space dancers:
> >
> > Recently someone pointed us to a poem about how open spaces
> > are
> > necessary for a fire. It has had me pondering.
> >
> > At first I said, Sure, she is speaking of oxygen. Fires need
> > oxygen. Now
> > I am not so sure that is what she meant, or at least what is
> > true. So I
> > am asking you my friends, what you have observed.
> >
> > Just how important is the physical space for opening space? I
> > am not
> > talking about amenities like chairs and windows and air, nor
> > about the
> > exact number of square meters needed per person (this is
> > cultural: some
> > cultures want to be close enough to feel each other's breath;
> > some want
> > more distance). In Open Space Online we have a metaphorical
> > space for
> > our chats; in face to face, we have that physical space. Is
> > that space
> > in the center of the circle a separate, unnoticed but
> > essential, element
> > in conversation?
> >
> > The flames need to lick upwards, the heat needs someplace to
> > go, the
> > light needs to escape. The betweens are necessary to give
> > birth to the
> > what and who is emerging from our collective. What is the role
> > of space?
> >
> > :- Doug.
> >
> > * * ==========================================================
> > OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU ------------------------------ To
> > subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of
> > oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
> > http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about
> > OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
> > http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
*
*
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The first volume of this work has the quote to which you referred, Christy.=
Here is a bit longer snippet:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">I have expressed the idea that space must be co=
nsidered an almost living entity—a kind of stuff which, depending on =
the recursive structures that are built up in it, becomes progressively mor=
e and more alive. Of course, it is unlikely that this way of understanding =
space </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000"><I>could be undertaken within the conf=
ines of a method of observation that insists that everything is a machine</=
I></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">. Since the conception of space/matter I d=
escribe in this book has precisely the character that is </FONT><FONT COLOR=
=3D"#000000"><I>not</I></FONT><I> </I><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">machine-like,=
no method of observation which is obliged to pretend that everything is ma=
chine-like can possibly see it as it is, or acknowledge its properties. Ita=
lics in original. Christopher Alexander, </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000"><I>=
The Nature of Order: An Essay on the Art of Building and The Nature of the =
Universe, Book One: The Phenomenon of Life, p 352.</I></FONT><I></I><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
This work has had me pondering a great deal in the last few days. Everythin=
g, Alexander seems to be saying, has a degree of being able to evoke in us =
a feeling of wholeness, of expansiveness, of movement. He puts great emphas=
is on the need for going within to observe what outside is more life-giving=
.<BR>
<BR>
But I think there is a next step, a deeper step: it is to the between. He w=
rites of something *making* me feel alive, *generating* a feeling of life, =
*inducing* greater harmony: these speak of one (living) thing touching--mee=
ting--another. It is this bumping, interacting, back and forth which is the=
essence of what he is pointing to. This happens only in the between.<BR>
<BR>
:- Doug.<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 2009-05-07 at 11:49 -0400, douglas germann wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE>
<PRE>
Christy--
Wow! You have left me saying Wow!
What an evocative notion--the space is alive. Is this true? Can we make
it so? Can we at least meet it so?
There are excerpts of Alexander's 4th book here:
<A HREF=3D"http://books.google.com/books?id=3D6CIHB3_1tLMC&printsec=3Df=
rontcover&dq=3Dchristopher+alexander+nature+of+order#PPA1,M1">http://bo=
oks.google.com/books?id=3D6CIHB3_1tLMC&printsec=3Dfrontcover&dq=3Dc=
hristopher+alexander+nature+of+order#PPA1,M1</A>
I have found his writing evocative as well. His books are huge, and sell
by the pound. Now I have to mortgage my house to get these books....
What do you suppose might be the recursive structures built up in open
space?
Harrison said that it takes a lifetime to explore open space, and here
for me is a new main artery.
Catherine, I like your image of a porous embrace. How do you see time
fitting into this living space of recursive structures? Could you say a
little more, please?
Still pondering....
:- Doug.
On Tue, 2009-05-05 at 23:09 -0700, Christy Lee-Engel wrote:
> Hi dear Doug,
> =20
> Well, your question reminds me of hearing friends talk about architect
> Christopher Alexander's work, in which he emphasizes that "space =
must
> be considered an almost living entity – a kind of stuff which,
> depending on the recursive structures that are built up in it, becomes
> progressively more and more alive."
>=20
> So that space can be more alive or less alive.
>=20
> I haven't read Alexander's 4-Volume "The Nature of Order" ye=
t, and so
> I don't know what "these fifteen properties" are - but this =
quote from
> a book review makes me want to read it and find out!:
>=20
> "Systems in space which have these fifteen properties to a strong
> degree will be alive, and the more these properties are present, the
> more the systems which contain them will tend to be alive."=20
>=20
>=20
> <A HREF=3D"http://natureoforder.com/overview.htm">http://natureoforder=
.com/overview.htm</A>
>=20
>=20
> love & blessings,
>=20
> Christy
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =20
> On 5/5/09, douglas germann <<A HREF=3D"mailto:76066.515 at compuserve.=
com">76066.515 at compuserve.com</A>> wrote:=20
> Hi space dancers:
> =20
> Recently someone pointed us to a poem about how open spaces
> are
> necessary for a fire. It has had me pondering.
> =20
> At first I said, Sure, she is speaking of oxygen. Fires need
> oxygen. Now
> I am not so sure that is what she meant, or at least what is
> true. So I
> am asking you my friends, what you have observed.
> =20
> Just how important is the physical space for opening space? I
> am not
> talking about amenities like chairs and windows and air, nor
> about the
> exact number of square meters needed per person (this is
> cultural: some
> cultures want to be close enough to feel each other's breath;
> some want
> more distance). In Open Space Online we have a metaphorical
> space for
> our chats; in face to face, we have that physical space. Is
> that space
> in the center of the circle a separate, unnoticed but
> essential, element
> in conversation?
> =20
> The flames need to lick upwards, the heat needs someplace to
> go, the
> light needs to escape. The betweens are necessary to give
> birth to the
> what and who is emerging from our collective. What is the role
> of space?
> =20
> :- Doug.
> =20
> * * =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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