Fwd: How a butterfly destroyed my neighbor's roof

Tue Jun 30 02:53:08 PDT 2009

Of course exactly the opposite can happen, too - that a butterfly
exactly *prevents* it from happening...

2009/6/30 Artur Silva <arturfsilva at yahoo.com>:
> I always tought, Peggy, that in some cases, we can have problems with
> butterflies ;-)
>
> Artur
>
>
> --- On Sun, 6/28/09, Peggy Holman <peggy at opencirclecompany.com> wrote:
>
> From: Peggy Holman <peggy at opencirclecompany.com>
> Subject: [OSLIST] Fwd: How a butterfly destroyed my neighbor's roof
> To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> Date: Sunday, June 28, 2009, 4:56 PM
>
> Too funny!
> Just another ordinary day for a butterfly:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fu7mEelECvc
>
> Laughingly,
> Peggy
> ______________________________
> Peggy Holman
> The Open Circle Company
> 15347 SE 49th Place
> Bellevue, WA  98006
> 425-746-6274
> www.opencirclecompany.com
> www.journalismthatmatters.org
>
> For the new edition of The Change Handbook, go to:
> www.bkconnection.com/ChangeHandbook
>
> "An angel told me that the only way to step into the fire and not get burnt,
> is to become
> the fire".
>   -- Drew Dellinger
>
>
>
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>From  Tue Jun 30 12:11:01 2009
Message-Id: <TUE.30.JUN.2009.121101.0200.>
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:11:01 +0200
Reply-To: c.pfaehler at bluewin.ch
To: OSLIST <OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>
From: Catherine Pfaehler <c.pfaehler at bluewin.ch>
Organization: Catherine Pfaehler
Subject: AW: How can we foster sustainable outcomes?
X-To: Kaliya * <identitywoman at gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <5629f6750906281741y798a71ebg89b1ccde090fe07e at mail.gmail.com>
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Dear Kaliya, it IS a new topic.

=20

Reinhard said that often, our discussions here are with the back to our
clients, defending our method, not giving enough emphasis on sustainable
results. He promotes visual documentation. And there must be other ways =
of
fostering sustainable outcomes better. I was wondering how you guys do =
that.

=20

Heartfully, C.

=20

Catherine Pfaehler Senn

lic.oec.HSG

Open Space Begleitung

St. Alban-Vorstadt 15

CH - 4052 Basel

+41-(0)76 - 488 15 46

c.pfaehler at open-space-begleitung.ch

www.open-space-begleitung.ch <http://www.open-space-begleitung.ch/>=20

=20

=20

  _____ =20

Von: Kaliya * [mailto:identitywoman at gmail.com]=20
Gesendet: Montag, 29. Juni 2009 02:41
An: c.pfaehler at bluewin.ch
Cc: OSLIST at listserv.boisestate.edu
Betreff: Re: How can we foster sustainable outcomes?

=20

WAIT!
 you lost me on this thread - Why? beacuse you changed the subject =
line...

all I see is "Dear Reinhard, You have a very interesting point..."

I am like WHAT POINT???

 I don't see Reinhard's comments because they are not in this thread - =
my
e-mail program and many many other people's help them track e-mail =
threads
(conversations) and if the subject line stays the same...clumps them
together and presents them as a conversation...unfodling one e-mail =
after
the next.=20

Please stop changing subject lines in conversational threasds on this =
list.=20

Thanks,=20
-Kaliya

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Catherine Pfaehler =
<c.pfaehler at bluewin.ch>
wrote:

Dear Reinhard

You have a very interesting point there. I have often wondered how the
sustainable implementation of visible results can be fostered "better" =
by
me, as in the post-OS-meeting, I often find my clients to focus on =
different
things than what I would have expected.

Then, again, on the other side, I am well aware that a most important =
side
result of an OS event is always teambuilding, communication and a =
stronger
commitment to their organisation by many participants. And if I succeed =
in
allowing the client to really be responsible for what happens with the
results, then I need to let go after having asked the evaluation =
questions
and some others like "Does anything need a vessel for coordination now?" =
and
"What has been developing since the OS event?".

Other opinions??

Heartfully, C.
=20
Catherine Pfaehler Senn
lic.oec.HSG
Open Space Begleitung
St. Alban-Vorstadt 15
CH - 4052 Basel
+41-(0)76 - 488 15 46
c.pfaehler at open-space-begleitung.ch
www.open-space-begleitung.ch
=20

-----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Reinhard Kuchenmueller [mailto:mail at visuelle-protokolle.de]
Gesendet: Montag, 22. Juni 2009 19:12
Betreff: AW: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST?

my two cents:

a principle is defined as a law superordinated to every other law.
Condition: A certain effect can always be retraced to the same =
constellation
of facts. (wikipedia).

In this sense Harrison's principles are definitively no principles at =
all.
But he was really clever: two martinis and four mundane sentences - and =
the
whole world is repeating them like a mantra. Mantras, as the east knows
since thousands of years, don't have to have a meaning, the essence lies
behind them. It only gets painful, if you start to worship the mantras
instead of the essence.

Why is open space so effective? Certainly not because of the mantras. As =
I
see it, we have to dig deeper:

I could think of principles like:

People are basically interested  - to engage themselves
                                         - to take responsibility
                                         - to interlink themselves

That happens as soon as one stops to treat people like obstinate mules.

And there exist conditions, which foster that, which support this so =
called
self organisation.

Certainly open space technology, as it is practised worldwide, is an
excellent condition for self organisation.

And your 'foundations' define it well.

Rather often a client spends money for an open space event, and for the
facilitator who proposes open space as a tool for the clients' purposes.
This aspect seems to be underestimated in the debate.

In my view the facilitator is responsible to link the proposed and =
choosen
form of the event, in our case open space, with the system and the =
purpose
of the client. What the client pays for is not the self organisation of =
his
people, that is only a beautiful side effect, and a bridge to engage =
people
in the affairs of the client - and more often simultaneously in their =
own
working conditions.

I cannot understand the disinterest of many open space facilitators =
towards
the outcome and its linkage with the system of the client.

That, in my eyes, is also the reason for the disinterest towards optimal
forms of recording the outcome - and as a visual facilitator I of course
propagate a visual form of protocol.

The discussions in the os list are mainly conducted with the back to the
clients, and that is a pity.

mit freundlichen Gr=FC=DFen
best regards

Reinhard Kuchenm=FCller

VISUELLE PROTOKOLLE

tel. +39-0566 88929
www.visuelle-protokolle.de
________________________________________
Von: OSLIST [OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] im Auftrag von Artur Silva
[arturfsilva at YAHOO.COM]
Gesendet: Sonntag, 21. Juni 2009 18:25
An: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Betreff: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST?

Larry:

I am sorry but only today I had the time to answer you.

We certainly need foundations or principles to Open Space.

But I prefer the word "foundations" instead of "principles" because, due =
to
the man of the hat, this word is connected forever (only) with "the 4
principles". And I think that that there are other principles =
(foundations)
as important as, or even more important than, the 4 so called =
principles.

Indeed I think (sorry Harrison) that the expression "The 4 principles" =
was
badly chosen.

Because it they are "what always happens" they are not principles at =
all.
And because we think that we must state the principles in the beginning =
of
every session (I myself to that the majority o the times - but not =
always")
and I am more and more convinced that they are useless. You can state =
them
or nor, and the same things will occur. They are probably "one less =
thing to
do/state".

But there are other principles or foundations that are essential, in the
sense that if they are not present different things will happen.

In the discussion I opened in our wiki some years ago I proposed the
following:

3. I would suggest, as HO wrote in the old User=92s Guide, that OST =
begins
with:

 *   A THEME that is compelling enough, but also general and open enough =
to
let people dream about and
 *   A GROUP OF COMMITED PEOPLE (reason for the presences to be almost
always voluntary)
 *   Enough DIVERSITY in the group
4. To those foundations one can add others that are generally accepted =
by
all practitioners:

 *   The CIRCLE (even if, in some cases, some argue that a "virtual =
circle"
will do)
 *   The Bulletin Board
 *   The Market Place
 *   The "law of two feet" (one of the most, if not the most important
feature, from where butterflies and bumblebees "germinate" and many
conflicts "evaporate")
 *   The "four principles" (as I have promised ;-)

(http://www.openspaceworld.org/cgi/netwiki.cgi?FoundationsofOST)

If I were to rewrite this today, I would surely suppress the last line. =
But
all the other "foundations" (including the law of two feet) are =
essential.
If you suppress one of them you will have a meeting; but not, IMHO, an =
OST
meeting. But we may not talk at all about the "4 principles" and =
everything
will happen as usual.

Best regrsds to all

Artur

--- On Thu, 5/28/09, Larry Peterson <larry at spiritedorg.com> wrote:

From: Larry Peterson <larry at spiritedorg.com>
Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST?
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009, 5:22 PM

Maybe a =93foundation=94 is another word for how I often describe the
=93principles=94.  I encourage people, when I open a space, to make some
assumptions about the gathering to assume what are stated as principles =
and
to act on that basis during the event.  I think these only become =
=93assumed=94
after some evolution of consciousness and I don=92t experience most =
folks in
organizations being there.  I think it is important to articulate them, =
to
influence the =93social construction=94 of the boundaries of the OST =
event along
with the most important part =96 the focus question or theme.  Yep, it =
may be
a bit of ritualized behaviour but I think it helps increase the
possibilities what will emerge in the self-organizing process that will
happen anyway.  Besides, I (we as facilitators) are one of the =
=93selves=94 in
the self-organization.

Larry

Larry Peterson & Associates in Transformation
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
larry at spiritedorg.com<http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dlarr=
y at spi
<http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dlarry@spi%0Aritedorg.com>=
=20
ritedorg.com>   416.653.4829
http://www.spiritedorg.com<http://www.spiritedorg.com/>

From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Artur
Silva
Sent: May-27-09 5:54 PM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST?

Harrison, Larry and all:

I am afraid that I continue to read only the messages from this list =
from
time to time...

Today, I read this answer from Harrison to a reply from Larry to an =
original
comment by Harrison. The 3 messages referred are listed below, and I ask =
you
to first read the parts of those messages that I have transformed in =
bold.

(...) Thanks for having done that ;-)

Now, I am happy that Harrison agrees that "the 4 principles and one law =
are
neither laws nor principles actually" and that there will come a day =
when
The Law and The Principles can be assigned to that wonderful status of =
=93One
more thing not to do.=94

But Larry commented, very wisely as usual, about the importance of some =
form
of =93boundaries=94 or =93container=94 for self-organization.

So, maybe it is the appropriate time to reintroduce a discussion that I =
have
tried to introduce many moons ago, about what are the foundations of =
OST.

I mean,

1) if the principles are not "principles" after all, but only what =
always
happens, and eventually even "one more thing not to do" (and I remember =
you
that I have done some OST experiments without reference to the =
Principles -
and all went well as usual), but

2) Some form of boundary or container is needed

where this boundary or container does comes from?

I have proposed to call that the "foundations" (not principles) of OST =
and
proposed some ideas (that are only preliminary ideas) I would like to =
read
(again) your opinions about.

You can found my (preliminary) proposals, of some time ago, here
http://www.openspaceworld.org/cgi/netwiki.cgi?FoundationsofOST

and here

http://listserv.boisestate.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0401
<http://listserv.boisestate.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0401&L=3Doslist&P=3DR2=
3925&I=3D-3
&%0AX=3D6543D44B5D0A7C3BC4&Y=3Darturfsilva%40yahoo.com> =
&L=3Doslist&P=3DR23925&I=3D-3&
X=3D6543D44B5D0A7C3BC4&Y=3Darturfsilva%40yahoo.com.

Looking forward to hear from you all

Warn regards from a warm night in Lisbon

Artur

------

--- On Wed, 5/27/09, Harrison Owen <hhowen at verizon.net> wrote:

From: Harrison Owen <hhowen at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Date: Wednesday, May 27, 2009, 7:23 AM
Right on Larry =96 and I found a very curious and embarrassing typo in =
my
small piece. I said, =93They (the Principles and the Law) are =
descriptive as
opposed to descriptive.=94 I meant to say,=94They are descriptive as =
opposed to
prescriptive.=94 Point is neither the Law nor the Principles tell you =
what to
do =96 they simply alert everybody to what will be taking place no =
matter
what. I think that is a useful function, but it really doesn=92t change =
a
thing. In short =96 there will come a day when The Law and The =
Principles can
be assigned to that wonderful status of =93One more thing not to do.=94

Harrison

Harrison Owen

7808 River Falls Drive

Potomac, Maryland   20854

Phone 301-365-2093

Skype hhowen

Open Space Training =
www.openspaceworld.com<http://www.openspaceworld.com/>

Open Space Institute =
www.openspaceworld.org<http://www.openspaceworld.org/>

Personal website www.ho-image.com<http://www.ho-image.com/>

OSLIST: To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the =
archives
Visit:
www.listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html<http://listserv.boisesta=
te.
edu/archives/oslist.html>

-----Original Message-----
From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Larry
Peterson
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:44 AM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: Anti Laws of OST

For me, there is more sense in the =93Principles and Law=94 than =
non-sense.
Stewart Kauffman explores the importance of some form of =
=93boundaries=94 or
=93container=94 for self-organization, particularly that of cells.  He =
believes
(with strong scientific evidence) that real physical work only gets done
within some =93boundaries=94 or it dissipates.  Cells, he asserts, =
co-create
their =93boundaries=94 with their environment through self-organizing
relationships in every moment.  The boundaries are permeable, =
constructs,
open to interchange with their environment. (No such thing as a closed
system!)

Harrison, I believe you have articulated a set of socially constructed
permeable =93boundaries=94 for enhancing human self-organization =96 =
including the
focus/theme, principles and law.  These set a temporary set of =
=93boundaries=94
or a =93container=94 both focused and open that change the perceived =
conditions
for self-organization at an event or meeting.  Self-organization is
happening all the time, in every moment.  Our mental maps (in practice) =
and
feelings shape what we do as we self-organize =96 what topics we propose =
and
who we connect to.  Are they necessary for self-organization (Open =
Space) =96
no, it is happening all the time as order emerges.  Do they (or other
similar statements about the social framework for our self-organizing) =
help
people to self-organize in exciting and creative ways?  I think so.

Larry

Larry Peterson & Associates in Transformation
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
larry at spiritedorg.com<http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dlarr=
y at spi
<http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dlarry@spi%0Aritedorg.com>=
=20
ritedorg.com>   416.653.4829
http://www.spiritedorg.com<http://www.spiritedorg.com/>

From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of =
Harrison
Owen
Sent: May-25-09 2:59 PM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST

Just to render the whole thing non-sensical, the 4 principles and one =
law
are neither laws nor principles actually. To be honest they are just my =
(and
others=92) observations of what seemed to be happening in any case. In a =
word
they are descriptive as opposed to descriptive =96 You could say it is =
all a
joke. Rather like =93technology=94 in the phrase Open Space Technology. =
The
joke, however turned out to be outrageously funny =96 because somehow or
another truth broke through. We are in serious trouble! Everybody knows =
that
what happens in Open Space simply can=92t happen. Unfortunately it does =
=96 and
that makes a joke out of a whole mess of other stuff =96 like most of =
what we
think we know about meetings, the management of meetings, and management
itself. Double trouble!!

Harrison

Harrison Owen

7808 River Falls Drive

Potomac, Maryland   20854

Phone 301-365-2093

Skype hhowen

Open Space Training =
www.openspaceworld.com<http://www.openspaceworld.com/>

Open Space Institute =
www.openspaceworld.org<http://www.openspaceworld.org/>

Personal website www.ho-image.com<http://www.ho-image.com/>

OSLIST: To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the =
archives
Visit:
www.listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html<http://listserv.boisesta=
te.
edu/archives/oslist.html>

.org/oslist

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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dear Kaliya, it =
IS a new
topic.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p>=
</span></font></p>

Reinhard said =
that often,
our discussions here are with the back to our clients, defending our =
method,
not giving enough emphasis on sustainable results. He promotes visual
documentation. And there must be other ways of fostering sustainable =
outcomes better.
I was wondering how you guys do that.<o:p></o:p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Heartfully, =
C.</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Comic Sans =
MS"><span
lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans =
MS";color:navy'>Catherine
Pfaehler Senn<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Comic Sans =
MS"><span
lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans =
MS";color:navy'>lic.oec.HSG<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Comic Sans =
MS"><span
lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans =
MS";color:navy'>Open
Space Begleitung<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

St.
Alban-Vorstadt 15<o:p></o:p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Comic Sans =
MS"><span
lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans =
MS";color:navy'>CH -
4052 <st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Basel</st1:place></st1:City><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Comic Sans =
MS"><span
lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans =
MS";color:navy'>+41-(0)76
- 48</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Comic Sans =
MS"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:navy'>8 15 =
46<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Comic Sans =
MS"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:navy'><a
href=3D"mailto:c.pfaehler at open-space-begleitung.ch">c.pfaehler at open-space=
-begleitung.ch</a></span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#0000a0" face=3D"Comic Sans =
MS"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:#0000A0'><a
href=3D"http://www.open-space-begleitung.ch/">www.open-space-begleitung.c=
h</a></span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

Von: =
Kaliya *
[mailto:identitywoman at gmail.com] 
Gesendet: Montag, 29. =
Juni 2009
02:41 
An: =
c.pfaehler at bluewin.ch 
Cc: <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">OSLIST</st1:PersonName>@listserv.boisestate.edu 
Betreff: Re: How can we =
foster
sustainable outcomes?<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>WAIT!<br>
 you lost me on this thread - Why? beacuse you changed the subject =
line...<br>
<br>
all I see is "Dear Reinhard, You have a very interesting =
point..."<br>
<br>
I am like WHAT POINT???<br>
<br>
 I don't see Reinhard's comments because they are not in this =
thread - my
e-mail program and many many other people's help them track e-mail =
threads
(conversations) and if the subject line stays the same...clumps them =
together
and presents them as a conversation...unfodling one e-mail after the =
next. <br>
<br>
Please stop changing subject lines in conversational threasds on this =
list. <br>
<br>
Thanks, <br>
-Kaliya<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Catherine Pfaehler <<a
href=3D"mailto:c.pfaehler at bluewin.ch">c.pfaehler at bluewin.ch</a>> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Dear Reinhard<br>
<br>
You have a very interesting point there. I have often wondered how =
the<br>
sustainable implementation of visible results can be fostered
"better" by<br>
me, as in the post-OS-meeting, I often find my clients to focus on =
different<br>
things than what I would have expected.<br>
<br>
Then, again, on the other side, I am well aware that a most important =
side<br>
result of an OS event is always teambuilding, communication and a =
stronger<br>
commitment to their organisation by many participants. And if I succeed =
in<br>
allowing the client to really be responsible for what happens with =
the<br>
results, then I need to let go after having asked the evaluation =
questions<br>
and some others like "Does anything need a vessel for coordination
now?" and<br>
"What has been developing since the OS event?".<br>
<br>
Other opinions??<br>
<br>
Heartfully, C.<br>
 <br>
Catherine Pfaehler Senn<br>
lic.oec.HSG<br>
Open Space Begleitung<br>
St. Alban-Vorstadt 15<br>
CH - 4052 Basel<br>
+41-(0)76 - 488 15 46<br>
<a =
href=3D"mailto:c.pfaehler at open-space-begleitung.ch">c.pfaehler at open-space=
-begleitung.ch</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://www.open-space-begleitung.ch" =
target=3D"_blank">www.open-space-begleitung.ch</a><br>
 <br>
<br>
<br>
-----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----<br>
Von: Reinhard Kuchenmueller [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:mail at visuelle-protokolle.de">mail at visuelle-protokolle.de</=
a>]<br>
Gesendet: Montag, 22. Juni 2009 19:12<br>
Betreff: AW: [<st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">OSLIST</st1:PersonName>] Anti =
Laws of
OST - Foundations of OST?<br>
<br>
my two cents:<br>
<br>
a principle is defined as a law superordinated to every other law.<br>
Condition: A certain effect can always be retraced to the same =
constellation<br>
of facts. (wikipedia).<br>
<br>
In this sense Harrison's principles are definitively no principles at =
all.<br>
But he was really clever: two martinis and four mundane sentences - and =
the<br>
whole world is repeating them like a mantra. Mantras, as the east =
knows<br>
since thousands of years, don't have to have a meaning, the essence =
lies<br>
behind them. It only gets painful, if you start to worship the =
mantras<br>
instead of the essence.<br>
<br>
Why is open space so effective? Certainly not because of the mantras. As =
I<br>
see it, we have to dig deeper:<br>
<br>
I could think of principles like:<br>
<br>
People are basically interested  - to engage themselves<br>
                    =

                   - =
to take
responsibility<br>
                    =

                   - =
to
interlink themselves<br>
<br>
That happens as soon as one stops to treat people like obstinate =
mules.<br>
<br>
And there exist conditions, which foster that, which support this so =
called<br>
self organisation.<br>
<br>
Certainly open space technology, as it is practised worldwide, is an<br>
excellent condition for self organisation.<br>
<br>
And your 'foundations' define it well.<br>
<br>
Rather often a client spends money for an open space event, and for =
the<br>
facilitator who proposes open space as a tool for the clients' =
purposes.<br>
This aspect seems to be underestimated in the debate.<br>
<br>
In my view the facilitator is responsible to link the proposed and =
choosen<br>
form of the event, in our case open space, with the system and the =
purpose<br>
of the client. What the client pays for is not the self organisation of =
his<br>
people, that is only a beautiful side effect, and a bridge to engage =
people<br>
in the affairs of the client - and more often simultaneously in their =
own<br>
working conditions.<br>
<br>
I cannot understand the disinterest of many open space facilitators =
towards<br>
the outcome and its linkage with the system of the client.<br>
<br>
That, in my eyes, is also the reason for the disinterest towards =
optimal<br>
forms of recording the outcome - and as a visual facilitator I of =
course<br>
propagate a visual form of protocol.<br>
<br>
The discussions in the os list are mainly conducted with the back to =
the<br>
clients, and that is a pity.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
mit freundlichen Gr=FC=DFen<br>
best regards<br>
<br>
Reinhard Kuchenm=FCller<br>
<br>
VISUELLE PROTOKOLLE<br>
<br>
tel. +39-0566 88929<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.visuelle-protokolle.de" =
target=3D"_blank">www.visuelle-protokolle.de</a><br>
________________________________________<br>
Von: <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">OSLIST</st1:PersonName> [<a
href=3D"mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE=
.EDU</a>]
im Auftrag von Artur Silva<br>
[<a href=3D"mailto:arturfsilva at YAHOO.COM">arturfsilva at YAHOO.COM</a>]<br>
Gesendet: Sonntag, 21. Juni 2009 18:25<br>
An: <a =
href=3D"mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE=
.EDU</a><br>
Betreff: Re: [<st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">OSLIST</st1:PersonName>] Anti =
Laws of
OST - Foundations of OST?<br>
<br>
Larry:<br>
<br>
I am sorry but only today I had the time to answer you.<br>
<br>
We certainly need foundations or principles to Open Space.<br>
<br>
But I prefer the word "foundations" instead of =
"principles"
because, due to<br>
the man of the hat, this word is connected forever (only) with "the =
4<br>
principles". And I think that that there are other principles
(foundations)<br>
as important as, or even more important than, the 4 so called =
principles.<br>
<br>
Indeed I think (sorry Harrison) that the expression "The 4
principles" was<br>
badly chosen.<br>
<br>
Because it they are "what always happens" they are not =
principles at
all.<br>
And because we think that we must state the principles in the beginning =
of<br>
every session (I myself to that the majority o the times - but not
always")<br>
and I am more and more convinced that they are useless. You can state =
them<br>
or nor, and the same things will occur. They are probably "one less =
thing
to<br>
do/state".<br>
<br>
But there are other principles or foundations that are essential, in =
the<br>
sense that if they are not present different things will happen.<br>
<br>
In the discussion I opened in our wiki some years ago I proposed the<br>
following:<br>
<br>
3. I would suggest, as HO wrote in the old User’s Guide, that OST =
begins<br>
with:<br>
<br>
 *   A THEME that is compelling enough, but also general and =
open
enough to<br>
let people dream about and<br>
 *   A GROUP OF COMMITED PEOPLE (reason for the presences to =
be
almost<br>
always voluntary)<br>
 *   Enough DIVERSITY in the group<br>
4. To those foundations one can add others that are generally accepted =
by<br>
all practitioners:<br>
<br>
 *   The CIRCLE (even if, in some cases, some argue that a
"virtual circle"<br>
will do)<br>
 *   The Bulletin Board<br>
 *   The Market Place<br>
 *   The "law of two feet" (one of the most, if not =
the
most important<br>
feature, from where butterflies and bumblebees "germinate" and =
many<br>
conflicts "evaporate")<br>
 *   The "four principles" (as I have promised =
;-)<br>
<br>
(<a =
href=3D"http://www.openspaceworld.org/cgi/netwiki.cgi?FoundationsofOST"
target=3D"_blank">http://www.openspaceworld.org/cgi/netwiki.cgi?Foundatio=
nsofOST</a>)<br>
<br>
If I were to rewrite this today, I would surely suppress the last line. =
But<br>
all the other "foundations" (including the law of two feet) =
are
essential.<br>
If you suppress one of them you will have a meeting; but not, IMHO, an =
OST<br>
meeting. But we may not talk at all about the "4 principles" =
and
everything<br>
will happen as usual.<br>
<br>
Best regrsds to all<br>
<br>
Artur<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--- On Thu, 5/28/09, Larry Peterson <<a =
href=3D"mailto:larry at spiritedorg.com">larry at spiritedorg.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
From: Larry Peterson <<a =
href=3D"mailto:larry at spiritedorg.com">larry at spiritedorg.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [<st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">OSLIST</st1:PersonName>] Anti =
Laws of
OST - Foundations of OST?<br>
To: <a =
href=3D"mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE=
.EDU</a><br>
Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009, 5:22 PM<br>
<br>
Maybe a “foundation” is another word for how I often =
describe the<br>
“principles”.  I encourage people, when I open a space, =
to make some<br>
assumptions about the gathering to assume what are stated as principles =
and<br>
to act on that basis during the event.  I think these only become
“assumed”<br>
after some evolution of consciousness and I don’t experience most =
folks in<br>
organizations being there.  I think it is important to articulate =
them, to<br>
influence the “social construction” of the boundaries of the =
OST event along<br>
with the most important part – the focus question or theme. =
 Yep, it may
be<br>
a bit of ritualized behaviour but I think it helps increase the<br>
possibilities what will emerge in the self-organizing process that =
will<br>
happen anyway.  Besides, I (we as facilitators) are one of the =
“selves” in<br>
the self-organization.<br>
<br>
Larry<br>
<br>
<br>
Larry Peterson & Associates in Transformation<br>
Toronto, Ontario, Canada<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:larry at spiritedorg.com">larry at spiritedorg.com</a><<a
href=3D"http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dlarry@spi%0Aritedo=
rg.com"
target=3D"_blank">http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dlarry@sp=
i<br>
ritedorg.com</a>>   416.653.4829<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.spiritedorg.com" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.spiritedorg.com</a><<a
href=3D"http://www.spiritedorg.com/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.spiritedorg.com/</a>><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">OSLIST</st1:PersonName> [mailto:<a
href=3D"mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE=
.EDU</a>]
On Behalf Of Artur<br>
Silva<br>
Sent: May-27-09 5:54 PM<br>
To: <a =
href=3D"mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE=
.EDU</a><br>
Subject: Re: [<st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">OSLIST</st1:PersonName>] Anti =
Laws of
OST - Foundations of OST?<br>
<br>
Harrison, Larry and all:<br>
<br>
I am afraid that I continue to read only the messages from this list =
from<br>
time to time...<br>
<br>
Today, I read this answer from Harrison to a reply from Larry to an =
original<br>
comment by Harrison. The 3 messages referred are listed below, and I ask =
you<br>
to first read the parts of those messages that I have transformed in =
bold.<br>
<br>
(...) Thanks for having done that ;-)<br>
<br>
Now, I am happy that Harrison agrees that "the 4 principles and one =
law
are<br>
neither laws nor principles actually" and that there will come a =
day when<br>
The Law and The Principles can be assigned to that wonderful status of =
“One<br>
more thing not to do.”<br>
<br>
But Larry commented, very wisely as usual, about the importance of some =
form<br>
of “boundaries” or “container” for =
self-organization.<br>
<br>
So, maybe it is the appropriate time to reintroduce a discussion that I =
have<br>
tried to introduce many moons ago, about what are the foundations of =
OST.<br>
<br>
I mean,<br>
<br>
1) if the principles are not "principles" after all, but only =
what
always<br>
happens, and eventually even "one more thing not to do" (and I
remember you<br>
that I have done some OST experiments without reference to the =
Principles -<br>
and all went well as usual), but<br>
<br>
2) Some form of boundary or container is needed<br>
<br>
where this boundary or container does comes from?<br>
<br>
I have proposed to call that the "foundations" (not =
principles) of
OST and<br>
proposed some ideas (that are only preliminary ideas) I would like to =
read<br>
(again) your opinions about.<br>
<br>
You can found my (preliminary) proposals, of some time ago, here<br>
<a =
href=3D"http://www.openspaceworld.org/cgi/netwiki.cgi?FoundationsofOST"
target=3D"_blank">http://www.openspaceworld.org/cgi/netwiki.cgi?Foundatio=
nsofOST</a><br>
<br>
and here<br>
<br>
<a
href=3D"http://listserv.boisestate.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0401&L=3Dos=
list&P=3DR23925&I=3D-3&%0AX=3D6543D44B5D0A7C3BC4&Y=3Dartu=
rfsilva%40yahoo.com"
target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.boisestate.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0401&=
amp;L=3Doslist&P=3DR23925&I=3D-3&<br>
X=3D6543D44B5D0A7C3BC4&Y=3Darturfsilva%40yahoo.com</a>.<br>
<br>
Looking forward to hear from you all<br>
<br>
Warn regards from a warm night in Lisbon<br>
<br>
Artur<br>
<br>
------<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--- On Wed, 5/27/09, Harrison Owen <<a =
href=3D"mailto:hhowen at verizon.net">hhowen at verizon.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
From: Harrison Owen <<a =
href=3D"mailto:hhowen at verizon.net">hhowen at verizon.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [<st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">OSLIST</st1:PersonName>] Anti =
Laws of
OST<br>
To: <a =
href=3D"mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE=
.EDU</a><br>
Date: Wednesday, May 27, 2009, 7:23 AM<br>
Right on Larry – and I found a very curious and embarrassing typo =
in my<br>
small piece. I said, “They (the Principles and the Law) are =
descriptive as<br>
opposed to descriptive.” I meant to say,”They are =
descriptive as opposed to<br>
prescriptive.” Point is neither the Law nor the Principles tell =
you what to<br>
do – they simply alert everybody to what will be taking place no =
matter<br>
what. I think that is a useful function, but it really doesn’t =
change a<br>
thing. In short – there will come a day when The Law and The =
Principles can<br>
be assigned to that wonderful status of “One more thing not to =
do.”<br>
<br>
Harrison<br>
<br>
<br>
Harrison Owen<br>
<br>
7808 River Falls Drive<br>
<br>
Potomac, Maryland   20854<br>
<br>
Phone 301-365-2093<br>
<br>
Skype hhowen<br>
<br>
Open Space Training <a href=3D"http://www.openspaceworld.com" =
target=3D"_blank">www.openspaceworld.com</a><<a
href=3D"http://www.openspaceworld.com/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.openspaceworld.com/</a>><br>
<br>
Open Space Institute <a href=3D"http://www.openspaceworld.org" =
target=3D"_blank">www.openspaceworld.org</a><<a
href=3D"http://www.openspaceworld.org/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.openspaceworld.org/</a>><br>
<br>
Personal website <a href=3D"http://www.ho-image.com" =
target=3D"_blank">www.ho-image.com</a><<a
href=3D"http://www.ho-image.com/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.ho-image.com/</a>><br>
<br>
<st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">OSLIST</st1:PersonName>: To subscribe, =
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edu/archives/oslist.html><br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">OSLIST</st1:PersonName> [mailto:<a
href=3D"mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE=
.EDU</a>]
On Behalf Of Larry<br>
Peterson<br>
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:44 AM<br>
To: <a =
href=3D"mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE=
.EDU</a><br>
Subject: Re: Anti Laws of OST<br>
<br>
For me, there is more sense in the “Principles and Law” than =
non-sense.<br>
Stewart Kauffman explores the importance of some form of =
“boundaries” or<br>
“container” for self-organization, particularly that of =
cells.  He
believes<br>
(with strong scientific evidence) that real physical work only gets =
done<br>
within some “boundaries” or it dissipates.  Cells, he =
asserts, co-create<br>
their “boundaries” with their environment through =
self-organizing<br>
relationships in every moment.  The boundaries are permeable, =
constructs,<br>
open to interchange with their environment. (No such thing as a =
closed<br>
system!)<br>
<br>
Harrison, I believe you have articulated a set of socially =
constructed<br>
permeable “boundaries” for enhancing human self-organization =
– including the<br>
focus/theme, principles and law.  These set a temporary set of
“boundaries”<br>
or a “container” both focused and open that change the =
perceived conditions<br>
for self-organization at an event or meeting.  Self-organization =
is<br>
happening all the time, in every moment.  Our mental maps (in =
practice)
and<br>
feelings shape what we do as we self-organize – what topics we =
propose and<br>
who we connect to.  Are they necessary for self-organization (Open =
Space)
–<br>
no, it is happening all the time as order emerges.  Do they (or =
other<br>
similar statements about the social framework for our self-organizing) =
help<br>
people to self-organize in exciting and creative ways?  I think =
so.<br>
<br>
Larry<br>
<br>
<br>
Larry Peterson & Associates in Transformation<br>
Toronto, Ontario, Canada<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:larry at spiritedorg.com">larry at spiritedorg.com</a><<a
href=3D"http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dlarry@spi%0Aritedo=
rg.com"
target=3D"_blank">http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dlarry@sp=
i<br>
ritedorg.com</a>>   416.653.4829<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.spiritedorg.com" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.spiritedorg.com</a><<a
href=3D"http://www.spiritedorg.com/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.spiritedorg.com/</a>><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">OSLIST</st1:PersonName> [mailto:<a
href=3D"mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE=
.EDU</a>]
On Behalf Of Harrison<br>
Owen<br>
Sent: May-25-09 2:59 PM<br>
To: <a =
href=3D"mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE=
.EDU</a><br>
Subject: Re: [<st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">OSLIST</st1:PersonName>] Anti =
Laws of
OST<br>
<br>
Just to render the whole thing non-sensical, the 4 principles and one =
law<br>
are neither laws nor principles actually. To be honest they are just my =
(and<br>
others’) observations of what seemed to be happening in any case. =
In a word<br>
they are descriptive as opposed to descriptive – You could say it =
is all a<br>
joke. Rather like “technology” in the phrase Open Space =
Technology. The<br>
joke, however turned out to be outrageously funny – because =
somehow or<br>
another truth broke through. We are in serious trouble! Everybody knows =
that<br>
what happens in Open Space simply can’t happen. Unfortunately it =
does – and<br>
that makes a joke out of a whole mess of other stuff – like most =
of what we<br>
think we know about meetings, the management of meetings, and =
management<br>
itself. Double trouble!!<br>
<br>
Harrison<br>
<br>
<br>
Harrison Owen<br>
<br>
7808 River Falls Drive<br>
<br>
Potomac, Maryland   20854<br>
<br>
Phone 301-365-2093<br>
<br>
Skype hhowen<br>
<br>
Open Space Training <a href=3D"http://www.openspaceworld.com" =
target=3D"_blank">www.openspaceworld.com</a><<a
href=3D"http://www.openspaceworld.com/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.openspaceworld.com/</a>><br>
<br>
Open Space Institute <a href=3D"http://www.openspaceworld.org" =
target=3D"_blank">www.openspaceworld.org</a><<a
href=3D"http://www.openspaceworld.org/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.openspaceworld.org/</a>><br>
<br>
Personal website <a href=3D"http://www.ho-image.com" =
target=3D"_blank">www.ho-image.com</a><<a
href=3D"http://www.ho-image.com/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.ho-image.com/</a>><br>
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------=_NextPart_000_09BF_01C9F97B.D5C52310--

>From  Tue Jun 30 12:21:30 2009
Message-Id: <TUE.30.JUN.2009.122130.0200.>
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:21:30 +0200
Reply-To: c.pfaehler at bluewin.ch
To: OSLIST <OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>
From: Catherine Pfaehler <c.pfaehler at bluewin.ch>
Organization: Catherine Pfaehler
Subject: AW: How can we foster sustainable outcomes?
X-To: Reinhard Kuchenmueller <mail at visuelle-protokolle.de>
In-Reply-To: <6C33996BDEC0394595D87F2E80ABC79B08BEAB9E0C at winxbede01.exchange.xchg>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Dear Reinhard

As you describe it in depth, it becomes more understandable and really
sounds wonderful. 

What about writing a book on methods and hints for visual protocols? I
especially like your idea of the participants doing the visual protocols
themselves. Some might even discover they have a talent they weren't aware
of!

And my original question remains open - what do others do to foster
sustainable outcomes?

Heartfully, C.

Catherine Pfaehler Senn
lic.oec.HSG
Open Space Begleitung
St. Alban-Vorstadt 15
CH - 4052 Basel
+41-(0)76 - 488 15 46
c.pfaehler at open-space-begleitung.ch
www.open-space-begleitung.ch

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Reinhard Kuchenmueller [mailto:mail at visuelle-protokolle.de] 
Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Juni 2009 07:01
An: c.pfaehler at bluewin.ch; OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Betreff: AW: How can we foster sustainable outcomes?

Dear Catherine,

it seems t get a dialogue between you and me - and Harrison defending his
turf - while all the others are busy discussing Paris Stammtisch and some
problems of dogma and exegesis in the holy principles.

 My focus lies on  the os meeting. My heart belongs to the paricipating
people, my head to the client behind everything.  In a meeting of lets say
200 participants everybody can choose between lets say ten group themes in
every time slot. If it goes for two days, with five time slots, that makes
50 groups of which the everage participant chooses five groups. All the
other groups, their themes, their surprising developments, their exitement,
their outcome, does not exist for him. All the groups make some protocols,
but in the worst possible way, in handwriting, and some typed short version.
Our everage participant does rarely read the outcomes of other groups. The
facilitator made himself invisible and is of little help. So his horizon is
built from 10 percent of the whole meeting. He goes home with a beautiful
experience  of team building and self organisation, and some memeory of 10
percent of the meeting. The client goes home with some written excerpts, and
if he is lucky he will be confronted with some ideas afterwards, of people
who want to ontinue their threads. Who is helping him to build the bridge
between his basic theme, his exspectations, and the outcome? The
facilitator? By which means?

I would wish all the os people could take part just once in a visualized os
event. Some witnesses, fair minded, impartial, are moving from group to
group, gathering process, results and atmosphere on small picture cards.
Nobody is noticing them. They put these picture cards into a big picture
wall, all the time, so that everybody who passes can get all the procedures
in some seconds time. And in the evening all the picture cards, digitalized
in the meantime, are shown to the plenum as a slide show with some music,
for about 10 minutes The participants not only increase the memory of their
own group from 20 to 60 percent, as scientists can proove, but at the same
time they get an overview about the whole big theme in all its complexity.
As if they can suddenly see the whole tree, of which they were busy handling
some branches so far. I experienced a deep satisfaction among the
participants every time we did that work. Of course all that is against the
old os dogma, but that does not bother the people at all.

And the client? He gets a detailled insight into all the groups. The little
images can be used in many ways to foster sustainable outcomes, as you say.
They can be clustered, regrouped, with atonishing results, showing what
people really said and mean.They can be used as material to work with in
smaller groups who continue with some items, they can be put into the
intranet, printed as leaflets, little books, calendars, posters, hang in the
corridors ...  As means to take the results really seriously.

AND NOW THE BIG QUESTION: is that worth the extra costs of extra people, who
visualize the event? Some clients say yes, it is. It makes the difference
between a beautiful experience of self orgsnization and the welding of a
tool for the organization.

I myself would not propose to visualize every os meeting by external
visualizers.  I would like very much to experiment with internal
visualization. We developed different ways of visualizing  by participants.
Once we made 800 union people in vienna draw in little groups, 72 images,
with an amazing result.

I can imagine, that in every os group two or three people start to doodle,
to draw what they experience, on little cards. A bit like world cafe (I
propose to the world cafe people to use little cards as well). And then like
said before, the cards can be hung into the picture wall, group by geoup,
and shown in the evening as slide show. I would very much like to develop
this method and to make it available to the whole os community.

mit freundlichen Grüßen
best regards

Reinhard Kuchenmüller

VISUELLE PROTOKOLLE

tel. +39-0566 88929
www.visuelle-protokolle.de
________________________________________
Von: Catherine Pfaehler [c.pfaehler at bluewin.ch]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. Juni 2009 17:15
An: Reinhard Kuchenmueller
Cc: 'OSLIST'
Betreff: How can we foster sustainable outcomes?

Dear Reinhard

You have a very interesting point there. I have often wondered how the
sustainable implementation of visible results can be fostered "better" by
me, as in the post-OS-meeting, I often find my clients to focus on different
things than what I would have expected.

Then, again, on the other side, I am well aware that a most important side
result of an OS event is always teambuilding, communication and a stronger
commitment to their organisation by many participants. And if I succeed in
allowing the client to really be responsible for what happens with the
results, then I need to let go after having asked the evaluation questions
and some others like "Does anything need a vessel for coordination now?" and
"What has been developing since the OS event?".

Other opinions??

Heartfully, C.

Catherine Pfaehler Senn
lic.oec.HSG
Open Space Begleitung
St. Alban-Vorstadt 15
CH - 4052 Basel
+41-(0)76 - 488 15 46
c.pfaehler at open-space-begleitung.ch
www.open-space-begleitung.ch

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Reinhard Kuchenmueller [mailto:mail at visuelle-protokolle.de]
Gesendet: Montag, 22. Juni 2009 19:12
Betreff: AW: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST?

my two cents:

a principle is defined as a law superordinated to every other law.
Condition: A certain effect can always be retraced to the same constellation
of facts. (wikipedia).

In this sense Harrison's principles are definitively no principles at all.
But he was really clever: two martinis and four mundane sentences - and the
whole world is repeating them like a mantra. Mantras, as the east knows
since thousands of years, don't have to have a meaning, the essence lies
behind them. It only gets painful, if you start to worship the mantras
instead of the essence.

Why is open space so effective? Certainly not because of the mantras. As I
see it, we have to dig deeper:

I could think of principles like:

People are basically interested  - to engage themselves
                                          - to take responsibility
                                          - to interlink themselves

That happens as soon as one stops to treat people like obstinate mules.

And there exist conditions, which foster that, which support this so called
self organisation.

Certainly open space technology, as it is practised worldwide, is an
excellent condition for self organisation.

And your 'foundations' define it well.

Rather often a client spends money for an open space event, and for the
facilitator who proposes open space as a tool for the clients' purposes.
This aspect seems to be underestimated in the debate.

In my view the facilitator is responsible to link the proposed and choosen
form of the event, in our case open space, with the system and the purpose
of the client. What the client pays for is not the self organisation of his
people, that is only a beautiful side effect, and a bridge to engage people
in the affairs of the client - and more often simultaneously in their own
working conditions.

I cannot understand the disinterest of many open space facilitators towards
the outcome and its linkage with the system of the client.

That, in my eyes, is also the reason for the disinterest towards optimal
forms of recording the outcome - and as a visual facilitator I of course
propagate a visual form of protocol.

The discussions in the os list are mainly conducted with the back to the
clients, and that is a pity.

mit freundlichen Grüßen
best regards

Reinhard Kuchenmüller

VISUELLE PROTOKOLLE

tel. +39-0566 88929
www.visuelle-protokolle.de
________________________________________
Von: OSLIST [OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] im Auftrag von Artur Silva
[arturfsilva at YAHOO.COM]
Gesendet: Sonntag, 21. Juni 2009 18:25
An: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Betreff: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST?

Larry:

I am sorry but only today I had the time to answer you.

We certainly need foundations or principles to Open Space.

But I prefer the word "foundations" instead of "principles" because, due to
the man of the hat, this word is connected forever (only) with "the 4
principles". And I think that that there are other principles (foundations)
as important as, or even more important than, the 4 so called principles.

Indeed I think (sorry Harrison) that the expression "The 4 principles" was
badly chosen.

Because it they are "what always happens" they are not principles at all.
And because we think that we must state the principles in the beginning of
every session (I myself to that the majority o the times - but not always")
and I am more and more convinced that they are useless. You can state them
or nor, and the same things will occur. They are probably "one less thing to
do/state".

But there are other principles or foundations that are essential, in the
sense that if they are not present different things will happen.

In the discussion I opened in our wiki some years ago I proposed the
following:

3. I would suggest, as HO wrote in the old User’s Guide, that OST begins
with:

 *   A THEME that is compelling enough, but also general and open enough to
let people dream about and
 *   A GROUP OF COMMITED PEOPLE (reason for the presences to be almost
always voluntary)
 *   Enough DIVERSITY in the group
4. To those foundations one can add others that are generally accepted by
all practitioners:

 *   The CIRCLE (even if, in some cases, some argue that a "virtual circle"
will do)
 *   The Bulletin Board
 *   The Market Place
 *   The "law of two feet" (one of the most, if not the most important
feature, from where butterflies and bumblebees "germinate" and many
conflicts "evaporate")
 *   The "four principles" (as I have promised ;-)

(http://www.openspaceworld.org/cgi/netwiki.cgi?FoundationsofOST)

If I were to rewrite this today, I would surely suppress the last line. But
all the other "foundations" (including the law of two feet) are essential.
If you suppress one of them you will have a meeting; but not, IMHO, an OST
meeting. But we may not talk at all about the "4 principles" and everything
will happen as usual.

Best regrsds to all

Artur

--- On Thu, 5/28/09, Larry Peterson <larry at spiritedorg.com> wrote:

From: Larry Peterson <larry at spiritedorg.com>
Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST?
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009, 5:22 PM

Maybe a “foundation” is another word for how I often describe the
“principles”.  I encourage people, when I open a space, to make some
assumptions about the gathering to assume what are stated as principles and
to act on that basis during the event.  I think these only become “assumed”
after some evolution of consciousness and I don’t experience most folks in
organizations being there.  I think it is important to articulate them, to
influence the “social construction” of the boundaries of the OST event along
with the most important part – the focus question or theme.  Yep, it may be
a bit of ritualized behaviour but I think it helps increase the
possibilities what will emerge in the self-organizing process that will
happen anyway.  Besides, I (we as facilitators) are one of the “selves” in
the self-organization.

Larry

Larry Peterson & Associates in Transformation
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
larry at spiritedorg.com<http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=larry@spi
ritedorg.com>   416.653.4829
http://www.spiritedorg.com<http://www.spiritedorg.com/>

From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Artur
Silva
Sent: May-27-09 5:54 PM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST?

Harrison, Larry and all:

I am afraid that I continue to read only the messages from this list from
time to time...

Today, I read this answer from Harrison to a reply from Larry to an original
comment by Harrison. The 3 messages referred are listed below, and I ask you
to first read the parts of those messages that I have transformed in bold.

(...) Thanks for having done that ;-)

Now, I am happy that Harrison agrees that "the 4 principles and one law are
neither laws nor principles actually" and that there will come a day when
The Law and The Principles can be assigned to that wonderful status of “One
more thing not to do.”

But Larry commented, very wisely as usual, about the importance of some form
of “boundaries” or “container” for self-organization.

So, maybe it is the appropriate time to reintroduce a discussion that I have
tried to introduce many moons ago, about what are the foundations of OST.

I mean,

1) if the principles are not "principles" after all, but only what always
happens, and eventually even "one more thing not to do" (and I remember you
that I have done some OST experiments without reference to the Principles -
and all went well as usual), but

2) Some form of boundary or container is needed

where this boundary or container does comes from?

I have proposed to call that the "foundations" (not principles) of OST and
proposed some ideas (that are only preliminary ideas) I would like to read
(again) your opinions about.

You can found my (preliminary) proposals, of some time ago, here
http://www.openspaceworld.org/cgi/netwiki.cgi?FoundationsofOST

and here

http://listserv.boisestate.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0401&L=oslist&P=R23925&I=-3&
X=6543D44B5D0A7C3BC4&Y=arturfsilva%40yahoo.com.

Looking forward to hear from you all

Warn regards from a warm night in Lisbon

Artur

------

--- On Wed, 5/27/09, Harrison Owen <hhowen at verizon.net> wrote:

From: Harrison Owen <hhowen at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Date: Wednesday, May 27, 2009, 7:23 AM
Right on Larry – and I found a very curious and embarrassing typo in my
small piece. I said, “They (the Principles and the Law) are descriptive as
opposed to descriptive.” I meant to say,”They are descriptive as opposed to
prescriptive.” Point is neither the Law nor the Principles tell you what to
do – they simply alert everybody to what will be taking place no matter
what. I think that is a useful function, but it really doesn’t change a
thing. In short – there will come a day when The Law and The Principles can
be assigned to that wonderful status of “One more thing not to do.”

Harrison

Harrison Owen

7808 River Falls Drive

Potomac, Maryland   20854

Phone 301-365-2093

Skype hhowen

Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com<http://www.openspaceworld.com/>

Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org<http://www.openspaceworld.org/>

Personal website www.ho-image.com<http://www.ho-image.com/>

OSLIST: To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives
Visit:
www.listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html<http://listserv.boisestate.
edu/archives/oslist.html>

-----Original Message-----
From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Larry
Peterson
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:44 AM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: Anti Laws of OST

For me, there is more sense in the “Principles and Law” than non-sense.
Stewart Kauffman explores the importance of some form of “boundaries” or
“container” for self-organization, particularly that of cells.  He believes
(with strong scientific evidence) that real physical work only gets done
within some “boundaries” or it dissipates.  Cells, he asserts, co-create
their “boundaries” with their environment through self-organizing
relationships in every moment.  The boundaries are permeable, constructs,
open to interchange with their environment. (No such thing as a closed
system!)

Harrison, I believe you have articulated a set of socially constructed
permeable “boundaries” for enhancing human self-organization – including the
focus/theme, principles and law.  These set a temporary set of “boundaries”
or a “container” both focused and open that change the perceived conditions
for self-organization at an event or meeting.  Self-organization is
happening all the time, in every moment.  Our mental maps (in practice) and
feelings shape what we do as we self-organize – what topics we propose and
who we connect to.  Are they necessary for self-organization (Open Space) –
no, it is happening all the time as order emerges.  Do they (or other
similar statements about the social framework for our self-organizing) help
people to self-organize in exciting and creative ways?  I think so.

Larry

Larry Peterson & Associates in Transformation
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
larry at spiritedorg.com<http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=larry@spi
ritedorg.com>   416.653.4829
http://www.spiritedorg.com<http://www.spiritedorg.com/>

From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Harrison
Owen
Sent: May-25-09 2:59 PM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST

Just to render the whole thing non-sensical, the 4 principles and one law
are neither laws nor principles actually. To be honest they are just my (and
others’) observations of what seemed to be happening in any case. In a word
they are descriptive as opposed to descriptive – You could say it is all a
joke. Rather like “technology” in the phrase Open Space Technology. The
joke, however turned out to be outrageously funny – because somehow or
another truth broke through. We are in serious trouble! Everybody knows that
what happens in Open Space simply can’t happen. Unfortunately it does – and
that makes a joke out of a whole mess of other stuff – like most of what we
think we know about meetings, the management of meetings, and management
itself. Double trouble!!

Harrison

Harrison Owen

7808 River Falls Drive

Potomac, Maryland   20854

Phone 301-365-2093

Skype hhowen

Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com<http://www.openspaceworld.com/>

Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org<http://www.openspaceworld.org/>

Personal website www.ho-image.com<http://www.ho-image.com/>

OSLIST: To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives
Visit:
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edu/archives/oslist.html>

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