AW: How can we foster sustainable outcomes?

Harrison Owen hhowen at verizon.net
Thu Jul 2 05:53:19 PDT 2009


Suzanne – Previously you asked an interesting question, “How then do we
blend traditional and self-organizing?” It occurs to me that there are
several answers which may appear antithetical, but probably both are true.
The first is that there is no need to blend – that has already occurred.
This would acknowledge what I believe to be true -- that everything is self
organizing. However the traditional organization fails to recognize that and
proceeds to the oxymoronic condition of organizing a self organizing system.
This never works very well and produces system mal-function and
sub-optimization. In a word it is pretty clunky. The school principal in
Michael’s story is a good illustration of that. He was in charge, ran
everything, traditional structure – and spent all of his time putting out
fires instead of doing the stuff he really needed and wanted to do. Doesn’t
that sound pretty much like a lot of organizations you know? Frustrated,
exhausted people! This is called a positive working environment!!

 

So then they do this Open Space, and “strange things happened.” (“
he had
really ample time to pay attention to long range planning and conception,
stuff he always wanted to have time for...”) You might think it was the
Magic of Open Space but the elixir comes from a deeper spring. You guessed
it! Self-Organization!  The miracle occurred when the organization simply
did what it already was! I don’t think this is really complicated. In Open
Space we don’t do something new and different – we simply do what we were
intended to do in the first place! And guess what – Things work a lot
better. And as long as we continue to be true to ourselves, they continue to
work better – even for 8 years! Of course we can always go back to be as
miserable as we used to be simply by organizing everything. Somewhere along
the line some scrooge says – We have to get control! You know the rest.

 

The second answer to your question is that -- You can’t blend the
traditional with self-organizing! It is pretty much like oil and water. And
when you try you are likely to end up with a big mess which is what always
happens when you attempt to organize a self-organizing system.

 

I think we are at an incredible moment – a moment of genuine paradigm shift.
We understand we are in a mess. We are beginning to understand why that is
so and what we might do about it. The moment is also terribly uncomfortable
which is what always happens at such moments. In effect we take two steps
forward and one step back – ending up at cross purposes with ourselves. We
have seen the possibilities – which is one of the gifts of Open Space. We
then seek to SUSTAIN those possibilities in the traditional fashion –
attempting to create new “ideal organizations,” enhanced methods of
facilitation, better means for recording discussions, and the like. I don’t
think any of those things are bad – but in all honesty I find them trivial
when compared to the challenge of the moment. Most of all I just don’t think
they have a prayer of getting us where we want to and need to go. 

 

The marvelous thing is that we don’t need to go anywhere. We are already
there – we only have to acknowledge our true selves and be true to that
self. And how do we do that? 

 

Jumping into that is a conversation I would love! 

 

Harrison

 

 

 

Harrison Owen

189 Beaucaire Ave

Camden, ME 04843

207-763-3261 (Summer)

301-365-2093 (Winter)

Website www.openspaceworld.com 

Personal Website www.ho-image.com 

OSLIST To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options
<http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html>
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html

 

 

 

  _____  

From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Suzanne
Daigle
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 10:32 PM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: AW: How can we foster sustainable outcomes?

 

Michael, the excited lady hugging you and filled with gratitude and the
principal with furrowed brow saying something strange is happening...he has
much more time than he used to have people would come much less frequently
to talk about stuff with him but obviously were out there leading projects,
and, for the first time he had really ample time to pay attention to long
range planning and conception, stuff he always wanted to have time for...all
because of an OPEN SPACE event 8 years ago.  

What you described there in such a vivid way, I feel it in my bones.  Not
only do I know this to be true, I see possibility for it everywhere. If only
we could trust ourselves and others to go all the way with this simple
process. What a gift!  As a Canadian living in Florida, I was touched by
your comment that the pictures looked like "home" to you in Berlin. 

ich danke Ihnen von ganzem Herzen .... Suzanne

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 11:31 AM, Michael M Pannwitz <mmpanne at boscop.org>
wrote:

Dear Susanne,
just returned from an afternoon reception at the headquarters of the Berlin
protestant welfare organisation in honor of a couple of people who received
rewards for their lifelong passion for social issues...its the kind of
gathering where you are bound to see people you havent for years or even
decades...so I always go!
Shortly after I arrived a lady rushed up to me, calling out my name, hugging
me...I had no clue...and then excitedly told me about an event at a local
highschool in 2001 that she attended as a parent...and how it changed her
life...and the life in the school...and how amazing it is in which way the
spirit (yes, she spoke of the spirit) of that event 8 years ago is alive and
does its thing in the school even today.
She did not talk about any specific project...but I remembered that 8 weeks
after the event they had a "Next Meeting" to look at their projects. And
they had two more in the year following the event...at the last one I
attended the principle came up to me, furrowed brow, saying, well, something
strange is happening, he has much more time than he used to have, people
would come much less frequently to talk about stuff with him but obviously
were out there leading projects, and, for the first time he had really ample
time to pay attention to long range planning and conception, stuff he always
wanted to have time for...
Ok, part of the story I knew already, the part with the spirit jumped at me
today...it will become part of the kind of story that I tell clients when
they ask me about sustainable effects/outcome...and I can give them the name
of the school and the principal because the school and the principal are in
the local news and papers all the time...
Aside from all the organisational stuff I tell the sponsor when
sustainability is desired.
I enjoyed myself with your message and especially touched myself with the
pictures...all looked like "home", it is immediately identifiable as open
space.
Greetings from Berlin
mmp

Suzanne Daigle wrote:

(warning very long...)

As I follow and reflect on the discussion about visual protocol and offering
visual results from an Open Space experience and then think about how we
connect benefits of self-organizing to a client’s desired outcome, so many
questions surface for me.

How can we honor a client’s desired outcome which assumes predictability and
control when Open Space invites something quite different?  With my limited
experience with Open Space (I’ve only done two as an unpaid volunteer) and a
long corporate career, my gut tells me that the Open Space way of lighting
up passion and responsibility in individuals and collectives will lead to
results that far exceed what a client could initially expect.  I know
because all my life, I’ve seen how much gets accomplished when people are
passionate about what they do.  Open Space is all about that. Many clients
want a clear-cut route to improved results, better service, higher quality,
etc.  This we cannot promise.  Rather, OS is a journey, a new way of doing
which means undoing what didn’t work, and seeing what we don’t’ want to see
to create what we can’t know.

How can we effectively convey to a client the importance of gut feel and
intuition, inviting them to an experience that they must “feel” and not just
“think”? The dilemma is that you cannot know Open Space until you’ve done
Open Space and not just once.  How can you describe what get’s ignited in
people when they get to choose (Law of Two Feet), feel Equal and live/work
according to principles (4 OS principles) – something that makes so much
sense but that is so different than what our current hierarchical world
dictates?

Once people are activated in an Open Space way, I think it ignites a longing
that is in each of us and the difficulty is that you just don’t want to go
back to the old way. How then do we blend traditional and self-organizing?

I struggle with these questions and as I embark on this wild ride of OS, I
imagine myself building trust at the beginning of my relationship with
clients talking about the issues that they care about and that they know:
their business.  Hopefully by connecting and being honest, I will establish
enough trust so that they will want to try this new way, knowing deep inside
them that the old ways aren’t working any more.  It’s about finding the
courage of our voice and actions, doing this together in a supportive way.

Knowing that we cannot immediately and fully internalize all that OS
represents, I then struggle with how we can optimize and capture what Open
Space does inside you.  What I did with incredible help from Michele Young,
who assisted me on the two Open Spaces that I facilitated, was create a
visual show that not only tried to capture in its authenticity what happened
there but also tried to convey the spirit of the invitation and preparation
and the OS concepts and themes of this new way of being so that people
through pictures can remember what it “felt” like to be part of this.  I
questioned myself in doing so wondering if this went against the principles
of self-organizing, equality, and the self-effacing role of a facilitator.
Then I told myself: heck
I’m doing it anyway as a gift.

 IONS Conference Open Space in Tucson
*
http://www.authorstream.com/Presentation/daigle_Suzanne-208049-ions-away-pre
sentation-open-space-spiritual-inspirational-ppt-powerpoint/
*


On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 8:35 AM, Harrison Owen <hhowen at verizon.net> wrote:

 Thanks Michael -- I think J



Harrison



Harrison Owen

189 Beaucaire Ave

Camden, ME 04843

207-763-3261 (Summer)

301-365-2093 (Winter)

Website www.openspaceworld.com

Personal Website www.ho-image.com

OSLIST To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html







-----Original Message-----
From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael
M Pannwitz
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 7:46 AM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: AW: How can we foster sustainable outcomes?



Liebe Catherine,

ich hab zu Deiner Frage schon mal in dieser Liste auf Englisch

geschrieben, aber hier kommts nochmal auf deutsch (ich fänds super,

wenns auch noch jemand, der es auf französisch und italienisch und

Latein probiert, aufschreibt, damit es sich in der ganzen Schweiz

verbreiten kann):



Mich interessieren Nachhaltigkeit oder nachhaltige Ergebnisse in meiner

Rolle als Begleiter überhaupt nicht.



Wenn der Veranstalter allerdings sowas will, nehm ich ihm ja auch in

keiner Weise krumm, dann sage ich ihm, was er tun kann, damit die

Wahrscheinlichkeit von nachhaltiger Umsetzung von Verabredungen zu

Vorhaben steigt und welcher Aufwand von Veranstaltern dazu mit ziemlich

gutem Erfolg dafür betrieben worden ist.



Gleich zu Anfang möchte ich Dir aber verraten, dass die Form der

Dokumentation dabei eine eher untergeordnete Rolle spielt (hierzu hatte

ich auch auf die Berichte von John Engle verwiesen aus Situationen, in

denen es kein Papier, keine Stifte gibt und in denen viele der

Teilnehmenden auch nicht lesen oder schreiben können).



Also hier meine Hinweise an den Veranstalter:



1. Ein Vorbereitungstreffen mit einer Gruppe, die in etwa die erwartete

Teilnehmerschaft abbildet, also das ganze System, wie es sich zu diesem

Zeitpunkt für ihn darstellt, zusammenbringen. Sie / er gehört dazu.

Optimal ist, wenn diese Gruppe authorisiert ist mit ihr / ihm gemeinsame

alles zu entscheiden: Thema, Einzuladende, Einladung, Organisation, etc.

Ich biete ihm die Begleitung des in der Regel 3,5stündigen Treffens an.

2. Eine Einladung, in der nicht nur zu der Veranstaltung eingeladen

wird, sondern auch schon zu dem 8 bis 12 Wochen später stattfindendem

"Nächsten Treffen", bei dem die Vorhaben, die in der Handlungsplanung am

Ende der OST Veranstaltung verabredet wurden, angeschaut werden...wo

sind wir jetzt?, gibts neue Vorhaben?, wie gehts weiter?...plus mögliche

weitere "Nächste Treffen".

3. Ein Verfahren, in dem so gut wie es irgendwie möglich ist

sichergestellt wird, dass all diejenigen auf jeweils spezifische Art und

Weise vom Veranstalter und Mitgliedern der Vorbereitungsgruppe

eingeladen werden, die dafür notwendig erscheinen, die Erwartungen unter

der gewählten Überschrift auch tatsächlich einzulösen.

4. Eine dreitägige Veranstaltung, also 16 Stunden auf drei Tage verteilt

(Nachmittag, ganzer Tag, Vor-oder Nachmittag), zweimal schlafen, mit

einer Handlungsplanung am letzten Tag.

5. Eine Dokuwand mit allen aus den Anliegengruppen entstehenden

Ergebnissen, die nochmal von allen gegen Ende des 2. Tages gemeinsame

zur Kenntnis genommen wird mit der Möglichkeit, dann noch zu jedem

Ergebnisblatt auf einem Ergänzungsblatt weitere Fragen, Hinweise, etc.

festzuhalten.(Diese gesammelten Werke können entweder als Papierdoku in

der Nacht vom 2. auf den 3. Tag hergestellt werden und den Teilnehmenden

am dritten Tag morgens gegeben werden oder als pdf/eDoku nach der

Veranstaltung auf einer www erscheinen, zu der die Teilnehmenden Zugang

haben).

6. Eine Kontaktliste der Teilnehmenden mit von den TeilnehmerInnen

überprüften Kontaktdaten für alle Teilnehmenden, die das wollen, am Ende

der Veranstaltung an alle Teilnehmenden für die Kommunikation nach der

Tagung verteilen (die Kontaktliste wurde im Laufe der Veranstaltung von

den Teilnehmenden selber erstellt).

7. Kopien der Verabredungen, die in der Handlungsplanung zu den Vorhaben

entstanden sind, an alle Teilnehmenden innert einer Woche nach der

Veranstaltung verschicken samt Einladung zu dem bereits bekannten

"Nächsten Treffen".

8. Deutliche Hinweise darauf, das alles von den Teilnehmenden so weit es

irgend möglich ist, selbst getan wird (ihre Anliegengruppen selbständig

organisieren,Dokublätter anfertigen,Kontaktliste erstellen...)



Für Veranstalter, die Nachhaltigkeit wollen, ist das alles sehr einfach,

einleuchtend, notwendig.

Für Veranstalter, die das nicht (wirklich) wollen, ist das alles eine

eher unüberwindbare Barriere.



So, das ist das, was ich mache und ich möchte nicht, dass es als Rezept

verstanden wird. Wenn jemand es so ausprobiert, würde es mich

überraschen, wenn es nicht klappt....



Herzlich Grüße aus Berlin

mmp



Catherine Pfaehler wrote:

Dear Reinhard
As you describe it in depth, it becomes more understandable and really
sounds wonderful.
What about writing a book on methods and hints for visual protocols? I
especially like your idea of the participants doing the visual protocols
themselves. Some might even discover they have a talent they weren't

aware

of!
And my original question remains open - what do others do to foster
sustainable outcomes?
Heartfully, C.
Catherine Pfaehler Senn
lic.oec.HSG
Open Space Begleitung
St. Alban-Vorstadt 15
CH - 4052 Basel
+41-(0)76 - 488 15 46
c.pfaehler at open-space-begleitung.ch
www.open-space-begleitung.ch
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Reinhard Kuchenmueller [mailto:mail at visuelle-protokolle.de]
Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Juni 2009 07:01
An: c.pfaehler at bluewin.ch; OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Betreff: AW: How can we foster sustainable outcomes?
Dear Catherine,
it seems t get a dialogue between you and me - and Harrison defending his
turf - while all the others are busy discussing Paris Stammtisch and some
problems of dogma and exegesis in the holy principles.
 My focus lies on  the os meeting. My heart belongs to the paricipating
people, my head to the client behind everything.  In a meeting of lets

say

200 participants everybody can choose between lets say ten group themes

in

every time slot. If it goes for two days, with five time slots, that

makes

50 groups of which the everage participant chooses five groups. All the
other groups, their themes, their surprising developments, their

exitement,

their outcome, does not exist for him. All the groups make some

protocols,

but in the worst possible way, in handwriting, and some typed short

version.

Our everage participant does rarely read the outcomes of other groups.

The

facilitator made himself invisible and is of little help. So his horizon

is

built from 10 percent of the whole meeting. He goes home with a beautiful
experience  of team building and self organisation, and some memeory of

10

percent of the meeting. The client goes home with some written excerpts,

and

if he is lucky he will be confronted with some ideas afterwards, of

people

who want to ontinue their threads. Who is helping him to build the bridge
between his basic theme, his exspectations, and the outcome? The
facilitator? By which means?
I would wish all the os people could take part just once in a visualized

os

event. Some witnesses, fair minded, impartial, are moving from group to
group, gathering process, results and atmosphere on small picture cards.
Nobody is noticing them. They put these picture cards into a big picture
wall, all the time, so that everybody who passes can get all the

procedures

in some seconds time. And in the evening all the picture cards,

digitalized

in the meantime, are shown to the plenum as a slide show with some music,
for about 10 minutes The participants not only increase the memory of

their

own group from 20 to 60 percent, as scientists can proove, but at the

same

time they get an overview about the whole big theme in all its

complexity.

As if they can suddenly see the whole tree, of which they were busy

handling

some branches so far. I experienced a deep satisfaction among the
participants every time we did that work. Of course all that is against

the

old os dogma, but that does not bother the people at all.
And the client? He gets a detailled insight into all the groups. The

little

images can be used in many ways to foster sustainable outcomes, as you

say.

They can be clustered, regrouped, with atonishing results, showing what
people really said and mean.They can be used as material to work with in
smaller groups who continue with some items, they can be put into the
intranet, printed as leaflets, little books, calendars, posters, hang in

the

corridors ...  As means to take the results really seriously.
AND NOW THE BIG QUESTION: is that worth the extra costs of extra people,

who

visualize the event? Some clients say yes, it is. It makes the difference
between a beautiful experience of self orgsnization and the welding of a
tool for the organization.
I myself would not propose to visualize every os meeting by external
visualizers.  I would like very much to experiment with internal
visualization. We developed different ways of visualizing  by

participants.

Once we made 800 union people in vienna draw in little groups, 72 images,
with an amazing result.
I can imagine, that in every os group two or three people start to

doodle,

to draw what they experience, on little cards. A bit like world cafe (I
propose to the world cafe people to use little cards as well). And then

like

said before, the cards can be hung into the picture wall, group by geoup,
and shown in the evening as slide show. I would very much like to develop
this method and to make it available to the whole os community.
mit freundlichen Grüßen
best regards
Reinhard Kuchenmüller
VISUELLE PROTOKOLLE
tel. +39-0566 88929
www.visuelle-protokolle.de
________________________________________
Von: Catherine Pfaehler [c.pfaehler at bluewin.ch]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. Juni 2009 17:15
An: Reinhard Kuchenmueller
Cc: 'OSLIST'
Betreff: How can we foster sustainable outcomes?
Dear Reinhard
You have a very interesting point there. I have often wondered how the
sustainable implementation of visible results can be fostered "better" by
me, as in the post-OS-meeting, I often find my clients to focus on

different

things than what I would have expected.
Then, again, on the other side, I am well aware that a most important

side

result of an OS event is always teambuilding, communication and a

stronger

commitment to their organisation by many participants. And if I succeed

in

allowing the client to really be responsible for what happens with the
results, then I need to let go after having asked the evaluation

questions

and some others like "Does anything need a vessel for coordination now?"

and

"What has been developing since the OS event?".
Other opinions??
Heartfully, C.
Catherine Pfaehler Senn
lic.oec.HSG
Open Space Begleitung
St. Alban-Vorstadt 15
CH - 4052 Basel
+41-(0)76 - 488 15 46
c.pfaehler at open-space-begleitung.ch
www.open-space-begleitung.ch
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Reinhard Kuchenmueller [mailto:mail at visuelle-protokolle.de]
Gesendet: Montag, 22. Juni 2009 19:12
Betreff: AW: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST?
my two cents:
a principle is defined as a law superordinated to every other law.
Condition: A certain effect can always be retraced to the same

constellation

of facts. (wikipedia).
In this sense Harrison's principles are definitively no principles at

all.

But he was really clever: two martinis and four mundane sentences - and

the

whole world is repeating them like a mantra. Mantras, as the east knows
since thousands of years, don't have to have a meaning, the essence lies
behind them. It only gets painful, if you start to worship the mantras
instead of the essence.
Why is open space so effective? Certainly not because of the mantras. As

I

see it, we have to dig deeper:
I could think of principles like:
People are basically interested  - to engage themselves
                                         - to take responsibility
                                         - to interlink themselves
That happens as soon as one stops to treat people like obstinate mules.
And there exist conditions, which foster that, which support this so

called

self organisation.
Certainly open space technology, as it is practised worldwide, is an
excellent condition for self organisation.
And your 'foundations' define it well.
Rather often a client spends money for an open space event, and for the
facilitator who proposes open space as a tool for the clients' purposes.
This aspect seems to be underestimated in the debate.
In my view the facilitator is responsible to link the proposed and

choosen

form of the event, in our case open space, with the system and the

purpose

of the client. What the client pays for is not the self organisation of

his

people, that is only a beautiful side effect, and a bridge to engage

people

in the affairs of the client - and more often simultaneously in their own
working conditions.
I cannot understand the disinterest of many open space facilitators

towards

the outcome and its linkage with the system of the client.
That, in my eyes, is also the reason for the disinterest towards optimal
forms of recording the outcome - and as a visual facilitator I of course
propagate a visual form of protocol.
The discussions in the os list are mainly conducted with the back to the
clients, and that is a pity.
mit freundlichen Grüßen
best regards
Reinhard Kuchenmüller
VISUELLE PROTOKOLLE
tel. +39-0566 88929
www.visuelle-protokolle.de
________________________________________
Von: OSLIST [OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] im Auftrag von Artur Silva
[arturfsilva at YAHOO.COM]
Gesendet: Sonntag, 21. Juni 2009 18:25
An: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Betreff: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST?
Larry:
I am sorry but only today I had the time to answer you.
We certainly need foundations or principles to Open Space.
But I prefer the word "foundations" instead of "principles" because, due

to

the man of the hat, this word is connected forever (only) with "the 4
principles". And I think that that there are other principles

(foundations)

as important as, or even more important than, the 4 so called principles.
Indeed I think (sorry Harrison) that the expression "The 4 principles"

was

badly chosen.
Because it they are "what always happens" they are not principles at all.
And because we think that we must state the principles in the beginning

of

every session (I myself to that the majority o the times - but not

always")

and I am more and more convinced that they are useless. You can state

them

or nor, and the same things will occur. They are probably "one less thing

to

do/state".
But there are other principles or foundations that are essential, in the
sense that if they are not present different things will happen.
In the discussion I opened in our wiki some years ago I proposed the
following:
3. I would suggest, as HO wrote in the old User’s Guide, that OST begins
with:
 *   A THEME that is compelling enough, but also general and open enough

to

let people dream about and
 *   A GROUP OF COMMITED PEOPLE (reason for the presences to be almost
always voluntary)
 *   Enough DIVERSITY in the group
4. To those foundations one can add others that are generally accepted by
all practitioners:
 *   The CIRCLE (even if, in some cases, some argue that a "virtual

circle"

will do)
 *   The Bulletin Board
 *   The Market Place
 *   The "law of two feet" (one of the most, if not the most important
feature, from where butterflies and bumblebees "germinate" and many
conflicts "evaporate")
 *   The "four principles" (as I have promised ;-)
(http://www.openspaceworld.org/cgi/netwiki.cgi?FoundationsofOST)
If I were to rewrite this today, I would surely suppress the last line.

But

all the other "foundations" (including the law of two feet) are

essential.

If you suppress one of them you will have a meeting; but not, IMHO, an

OST

meeting. But we may not talk at all about the "4 principles" and

everything

will happen as usual.
Best regrsds to all
Artur
--- On Thu, 5/28/09, Larry Peterson <larry at spiritedorg.com> wrote:
From: Larry Peterson <larry at spiritedorg.com>
Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST?
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009, 5:22 PM
Maybe a “foundation” is another word for how I often describe the
“principles”.  I encourage people, when I open a space, to make some
assumptions about the gathering to assume what are stated as principles

and

to act on that basis during the event.  I think these only become

“assumed”

after some evolution of consciousness and I don’t experience most folks

in

organizations being there.  I think it is important to articulate them,

to

influence the “social construction” of the boundaries of the OST event

along

with the most important part – the focus question or theme.  Yep, it may

be

a bit of ritualized behaviour but I think it helps increase the
possibilities what will emerge in the self-organizing process that will
happen anyway.  Besides, I (we as facilitators) are one of the “selves”

in

the self-organization.
Larry
Larry Peterson & Associates in Transformation
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
larry at spiritedorg.com<

http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=larry@spi

ritedorg.com>   416.653.4829
http://www.spiritedorg.com<http://www.spiritedorg.com/>
From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Artur
Silva
Sent: May-27-09 5:54 PM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST?
Harrison, Larry and all:
I am afraid that I continue to read only the messages from this list from
time to time...
Today, I read this answer from Harrison to a reply from Larry to an

original

comment by Harrison. The 3 messages referred are listed below, and I ask

you

to first read the parts of those messages that I have transformed in

bold.

(...) Thanks for having done that ;-)
Now, I am happy that Harrison agrees that "the 4 principles and one law

are

neither laws nor principles actually" and that there will come a day when
The Law and The Principles can be assigned to that wonderful status of

“One

more thing not to do.”
But Larry commented, very wisely as usual, about the importance of some

form

of “boundaries” or “container” for self-organization.
So, maybe it is the appropriate time to reintroduce a discussion that I

have

tried to introduce many moons ago, about what are the foundations of OST.
I mean,
1) if the principles are not "principles" after all, but only what always
happens, and eventually even "one more thing not to do" (and I remember

you

that I have done some OST experiments without reference to the Principles

-

and all went well as usual), but
2) Some form of boundary or container is needed
where this boundary or container does comes from?
I have proposed to call that the "foundations" (not principles) of OST

and

proposed some ideas (that are only preliminary ideas) I would like to

read

(again) your opinions about.
You can found my (preliminary) proposals, of some time ago, here
http://www.openspaceworld.org/cgi/netwiki.cgi?FoundationsofOST
and here

http://listserv.boisestate.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0401
<http://listserv.boisestate.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0401&L=oslist&P=R23925&I=-3
&> &L=oslist&P=R23925&I=-3&

X=6543D44B5D0A7C3BC4&Y=arturfsilva%40yahoo.com.
Looking forward to hear from you all
Warn regards from a warm night in Lisbon
Artur
------
--- On Wed, 5/27/09, Harrison Owen <hhowen at verizon.net> wrote:
From: Harrison Owen <hhowen at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Date: Wednesday, May 27, 2009, 7:23 AM
Right on Larry – and I found a very curious and embarrassing typo in my
small piece. I said, “They (the Principles and the Law) are descriptive

as

opposed to descriptive.” I meant to say,”They are descriptive as opposed

to

prescriptive.” Point is neither the Law nor the Principles tell you what

to

do – they simply alert everybody to what will be taking place no matter
what. I think that is a useful function, but it really doesn’t change a
thing. In short – there will come a day when The Law and The Principles

can

be assigned to that wonderful status of “One more thing not to do.”
Harrison
Harrison Owen
7808 River Falls Drive
Potomac, Maryland   20854
Phone 301-365-2093
Skype hhowen
Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com<

http://www.openspaceworld.com/>

Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org<

http://www.openspaceworld.org/>

Personal website www.ho-image.com<http://www.ho-image.com/>
OSLIST: To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives
Visit:
www.listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html<

http://listserv.boisestate.

edu/archives/oslist.html>
-----Original Message-----
From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Larry
Peterson
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:44 AM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: Anti Laws of OST
For me, there is more sense in the “Principles and Law” than non-sense.
Stewart Kauffman explores the importance of some form of “boundaries” or
“container” for self-organization, particularly that of cells.  He

believes

(with strong scientific evidence) that real physical work only gets done
within some “boundaries” or it dissipates.  Cells, he asserts, co-create
their “boundaries” with their environment through self-organizing
relationships in every moment.  The boundaries are permeable, constructs,
open to interchange with their environment. (No such thing as a closed
system!)
Harrison, I believe you have articulated a set of socially constructed
permeable “boundaries” for enhancing human self-organization – including

the

focus/theme, principles and law.  These set a temporary set of

“boundaries”

or a “container” both focused and open that change the perceived

conditions

for self-organization at an event or meeting.  Self-organization is
happening all the time, in every moment.  Our mental maps (in practice)

and

feelings shape what we do as we self-organize – what topics we propose

and

who we connect to.  Are they necessary for self-organization (Open Space)

–

no, it is happening all the time as order emerges.  Do they (or other
similar statements about the social framework for our self-organizing)

help

people to self-organize in exciting and creative ways?  I think so.
Larry
Larry Peterson & Associates in Transformation
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
larry at spiritedorg.com<

http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=larry@spi

ritedorg.com>   416.653.4829
http://www.spiritedorg.com<http://www.spiritedorg.com/>
From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of

Harrison

Owen
Sent: May-25-09 2:59 PM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST
Just to render the whole thing non-sensical, the 4 principles and one law
are neither laws nor principles actually. To be honest they are just my

(and

others’) observations of what seemed to be happening in any case. In a

word

they are descriptive as opposed to descriptive – You could say it is all

a

joke. Rather like “technology” in the phrase Open Space Technology. The
joke, however turned out to be outrageously funny – because somehow or
another truth broke through. We are in serious trouble! Everybody knows

that

what happens in Open Space simply can’t happen. Unfortunately it does –

and

that makes a joke out of a whole mess of other stuff – like most of what

we

think we know about meetings, the management of meetings, and management
itself. Double trouble!!
Harrison
Harrison Owen
7808 River Falls Drive
Potomac, Maryland   20854
Phone 301-365-2093
Skype hhowen
Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com<

http://www.openspaceworld.com/>

Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org<

http://www.openspaceworld.org/>

Personal website www.ho-image.com<http://www.ho-image.com/>
OSLIST: To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives
Visit:
www.listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html<

http://listserv.boisestate.

edu/archives/oslist.html>
.org/oslist
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Check out the Open Space World Map presently showing 447 resident Open

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Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
++49-30-772 8000
mmpanne at boscop.org
www.boscop.org



Check out the Open Space World Map presently showing 448 resident Open Space
Workers in 71 countries working in a total of 140 countries worldwide
Have a look:
www.openspaceworldmap.org

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