Wave Rider: Who is the self organizing?

Wed Nov 5 18:04:19 PST 2008

Larry--

Really glad to "see" you back on the list! Did the surgery go well for
you?

It seems to me that both the members and the leaders of a group are part
of the system, and I am beginning to grasp what Harrison says about them
being a very small part of the system. But small jets (I am told) can
direct large streams of water and other fluids, so I suspect that might
also be true of human systems, such as communities. So I see the leaders
(that is all of the members, ideally, or at least many of them in open
space) as part of the self-organizing system.

At least at this hour of the night!

Michael--

It seems to me that the leaders are a larger group than just those with
titles, yes? So do they not have the responsibility for setting their
own boundaries? Even in the midst of your friend's democratic swamp and
my friend's "Group grope?" Is not the grope and the swamp just part of
the stew we all go through everyday, every project, every meeting? And
is it possible that that is a good thing, part of the softening up of
the meat and vegetables so we have a savory meal?

Jack--

I like your notion that mission keeps us from working on what our
purpose is.

Beyond your question for me is a more sticky one--what is the purpose of
a community or possibly even a country? Sure a country might have a
constitution of some sort, but I seem to recall that Great Britain got
along for many centuries without one, until some upstarts forced one on
the Crown. But a community, say a neighborhood in a city or a town,
might be just a collection of whoever happens to live there, without any
written charter. What then? Who decides what it's purpose is? Does it
have a purpose at all? Does it make a difference that no one knows what
its purpose is?

Can a case be made that the purpose might just be emergent? For
instance, in the community someone thinks something needs to be done for
the environment, so they organize a recycling drive. That drive has a
purpose--recycling wherever, whenever, etc. But the community lives on
without (written) purpose. Yes?

			:- Doug.

On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 10:35 -0400, Larry Peterson wrote:
> Doug:
> 
> I can't reply for Harrison, but I have some thoughts on the importance of
> "leaders" in self-organizing processes.  I think it is about articulating
> the direction and the "boundaries" within which self-organization happens.  
> 
> I've recently been reading "Reinventing the Sacred" by Stuart Kauffman -- it
> is a tough scientific read so I'll read it again.  He does make a strong
> scientific case for "self-organization" from molecules up -- including
> biological and human systems (like economies). He provides some "proof" that
> systems are not reducible to quantum/physics phenomena.  He states that
> cells (for example) self-organize the next level of boundaries within which
> self-organizing processes happen and without the boundaries it wouldn't
> happen.  Boundaries are clearly semi-permeable with their environment, but
> real enough to give some definition to the reality.  
> 
> "Leaders", maybe, in human systems are those people who articulate both the
> frame and the direction well enough to help create the conditions for more
> effective self-organization in that direction.  Formal leadership can also
> help by committing resources in a certain direction. Certainly the role of
> formal leaders in organizations where I have opened the space have been key
> to both event success and longer term engagement of others.
> 
> The other book I've read is "Hot, Flat and Crowded" by Friedman.  He clearly
> believes that to more intentionally address the climate change crisis upon
> us, a new regulation frame has to be created by formal leadership --
> governments. (He has some understanding that this creates the conditions for
> innovation.)  Otherwise, it will continue to be too easy and cheap to use
> fossil fuels that we will not make the switch and the next 20 years are
> critical to reduce the carbon and the number of climate change calamities
> that will befall us (and keep us alive as a species).  Certainly the crises
> won't be eliminated.
> 
> Now that my surgery is over and healing is on my agenda, I'm hoping to read
> and think and contribute more.
> 
> Larry
> 
> 
> Larry Peterson & Associates in Transformation
> Toronto, Ontario, Canada
> mailto:larry at spiritedorg.com   416.653.4829   http//:www.spiritedorg.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of douglas
> germann
> Sent: October-28-08 10:29 AM
> To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> Subject: Wave Rider: Who is the self organizing?
> 
> Harrison--
> 
> If we self organize our work, why do you make such a point that we did
> not do it ourselves? (eg, Wave Rider, p 133) 
> 
> I suspect the answer has to do with debunking the notion that someone
> did it for us: The Leader. However, in point of fact, the people
> organized it, organically and largely unconsciously. That's what I am
> seeing. In other words, you seem to be saying, in the realm of humans
> working together, it was not done by just a few of us, but by all of us.
> Yes? 
> 
> But if just a few of "The Leaders" did it for us, is it not because we
> abdicated our role in the process to them? So even that is self
> organizing?
> 
> When we are speaking of human enterprise, who is the self who organized?
> 
> 			:- Doug.
> 
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