the circle space of OSlist...was luminaries

Mon Aug 27 19:04:52 PDT 2007

Dear all,

I am so grateful for this "luminary" conversation and the various directions
it has taken.

And thank you, Tree, for showing up and sharing your thoughts about
expressing yourself on OSlist. I think your last message opened up some new
space...

Lisa, like you wrote, I find it very important for all of us to show up here
on the list as we are. And, so I want to encourage you, Tree- and everyone
else- to show up here as you are, too. 

When you talk about being a little gunshy on the list, Tree, I hear you on
one level. I have grown to be more cautious here, too, recently. And not
because the OSlist has changed in a particular way, but rather, perhaps,
because I care more that what I bring to this list embody the spirit of OS. 

Ultimately, the list is a space opened and held by all those who show up,
including the silent 90% of the more than 500-odd intimate strangers that
make up this online community/organization. 

Tree, when you wrote about feeling attacked on the list, I recalled a few
occasions onlist when you have expressed criticism of people, myself
included, and I chose to feel anger and hurt then. 

It's in large part because of the fact that we have met in real life and I
have experienced your big heart- you gave me some much needed support at the
Halifax WOSonOS at a tough moment- that I can see you as you are, like all
of us a lotus floating in the muddy waters flowing through the open space of
life.

I also want to express some sadness, because I know I have not always shown
up on the list as I wished to. Case in point is in this "luminary" thread.
In posing my questions about circle, Kaliya, the intent was not to criticize
your work- I appreciate and am grateful for it- and unfortunately that's how
it came across. So, Kaliya, just wanted to express some regret!

It's indeed tough sometimes, to really show up here and yet in a way that is
inviting.

I recall a comment a few years back from Artur Silva on the list, remarking-
if I recall correctly- on the occasional North American polite tone on the
list and how this tended to disinvite deeper, more authentic conversation. 

Indeed to some extent, that has been my experience here, too- and that's how
I understand your words, Tree- is how sometimes unspoken (North American)
rules have a way of making messages ok or not ok on the list. 

Among those "rules" are an expectation that the tone of messages be
appreciative, open, invite curiosity, and wonder.

And also that the tougher, messier, interpersonal, and
inside-the-OS-community stuff remain offlist.

I don't know know if others share this experience of these unspoken rules. I
think they are very valuable "rules". I am just not sure I am always - try
as I might- in a space to be able to follow them!

I recognize this message is coming through a little garbled, and trust that
that it will come through in the spaces between the words.

in gratitude, (some) humility, appreciation and wonder <impish grin>,
raffi

*
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>From  Mon Aug 27 22:28:44 2007
Message-Id: <MON.27.AUG.2007.222844.0400.>
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 22:28:44 -0400
Reply-To: deborah at hartmann.net
To: OSLIST <OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>
From: Deborah Hartmann <deborah at hartmann.net>
Subject: Re: conversation styles ... was: the circle space of OSlist
In-Reply-To: <LISTSERV%200708272004525071.02C0 at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>
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Raffi. Thanks for your observations and comments.

Having lived mainly in one small section of North America, I am 
fascinated by your observations about

> the occasional North American polite tone on the
> list and how this tended to disinvite deeper, more 
> authentic conversation. 

Of course, to me, this has been quite invisible, as "it's the way we do things here" :-) 
But I do recognize what you are talking about.

So, could you help me understand some different ways people have of conversing on forums like this?
I am interested, as I am sure it could help me work with my international colleagues better. Now that I'm a freelancer, so many of my relationships have a significant online aspect! For example, though Lisa Heft and I have not met in person (yet!) we definitely have a working relationship. But we are both North Americans.

What can we North Americans do to make people from European or other cultures feel more welcome? Do you have suggestions? Or, more to the point you made: how can we make room for the "messier" stuff that life is also made up of?

:-)
deb

Raffi Aftandelian wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> I am so grateful for this "luminary" conversation and the various directions
> it has taken.
>
> And thank you, Tree, for showing up and sharing your thoughts about
> expressing yourself on OSlist. I think your last message opened up some new
> space...
>
> Lisa, like you wrote, I find it very important for all of us to show up here
> on the list as we are. And, so I want to encourage you, Tree- and everyone
> else- to show up here as you are, too. 
>
> When you talk about being a little gunshy on the list, Tree, I hear you on
> one level. I have grown to be more cautious here, too, recently. And not
> because the OSlist has changed in a particular way, but rather, perhaps,
> because I care more that what I bring to this list embody the spirit of OS. 
>
> Ultimately, the list is a space opened and held by all those who show up,
> including the silent 90% of the more than 500-odd intimate strangers that
> make up this online community/organization. 
>
> Tree, when you wrote about feeling attacked on the list, I recalled a few
> occasions onlist when you have expressed criticism of people, myself
> included, and I chose to feel anger and hurt then. 
>
> It's in large part because of the fact that we have met in real life and I
> have experienced your big heart- you gave me some much needed support at the
> Halifax WOSonOS at a tough moment- that I can see you as you are, like all
> of us a lotus floating in the muddy waters flowing through the open space of
> life.
>
> I also want to express some sadness, because I know I have not always shown
> up on the list as I wished to. Case in point is in this "luminary" thread.
> In posing my questions about circle, Kaliya, the intent was not to criticize
> your work- I appreciate and am grateful for it- and unfortunately that's how
> it came across. So, Kaliya, just wanted to express some regret!
>
> It's indeed tough sometimes, to really show up here and yet in a way that is
> inviting.
>
> I recall a comment a few years back from Artur Silva on the list, remarking-
> if I recall correctly- on the occasional North American polite tone on the
> list and how this tended to disinvite deeper, more authentic conversation. 
>
> Indeed to some extent, that has been my experience here, too- and that's how
> I understand your words, Tree- is how sometimes unspoken (North American)
> rules have a way of making messages ok or not ok on the list. 
>
> Among those "rules" are an expectation that the tone of messages be
> appreciative, open, invite curiosity, and wonder.
>
> And also that the tougher, messier, interpersonal, and
> inside-the-OS-community stuff remain offlist.
>
> I don't know know if others share this experience of these unspoken rules. I
> think they are very valuable "rules". I am just not sure I am always - try
> as I might- in a space to be able to follow them!
>
> I recognize this message is coming through a little garbled, and trust that
> that it will come through in the spaces between the words.
>
> in gratitude, (some) humility, appreciation and wonder <impish grin>,
> raffi
>
> *
> *
> =============================
> OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> ------------------------------
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
> view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html
>
> To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
> http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
>
>
>   

*
*
=============================
OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
------------------------------
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view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
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Raffi. Thanks for your observations and comments.<br>
<br>
Having lived mainly in one small section of North America, I am
fascinated by your observations about <br>
<pre wrap="">> the occasional North American polite tone on the
> list and how this tended to disinvite deeper, more 
> authentic conversation. 

Of course, to me, this has been quite invisible, as "it's the way we do things here" :-) 
But I do recognize what you are talking about.

So, could you help me understand some different ways people have of conversing on forums like this?
I am interested, as I am sure it could help me work with my international colleagues better. Now that I'm a freelancer, so many of my relationships have a significant online aspect! For example, though Lisa Heft and I have not met in person (yet!) we definitely have a working relationship. But we are both North Americans.

What can we North Americans do to make people from European or other cultures feel more welcome? Do you have suggestions? Or, more to the point you made: how can we make room for the "messier" stuff that life is also made up of?

:-)
deb
</pre>
<br>
Raffi Aftandelian wrote:
<blockquote
 cite="mid:LISTSERV%25200708272004525071.02C0 at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">Dear all,