OST and POP (was: The Pros and Cons of OST)

Kate Armstrong 4pangaea at sbcglobal.net
Sat Nov 26 16:30:08 PST 2005 

Beautifully, nay magnificently spoken, Peggy!

All the best,
Kate, aka "Pollyanna," as much as one can be in 2005  ;-)


On Nov 25, 2005, at 10:21 PM, Peggy Holman wrote:

> Allison,
>
> You said:
>> One saving grace for me around 1985 was giving up focussing on 
>> positivity.
>> That allowed me to drop into the depression and feel it even more  
>> fully than I had allowed myself before.
>> It was such a relief not to be trying to cheer up or even look for  
>> the positive.
>
> Sounds like a wise choice!   I can imagine that  focusing on 
> positivity could keep one stuck, never fully stepping into real 
> feelings.
>
> You reminded me of something I've learned through Appreciative 
> Inquiry.  (AI is sometimes misperceived to be about focusing on 
> positivity.)
> The genius and the art of AI is to find questions that explore what is 
> life-giving, whatever the situation.
>
> This requires no obligation to be positive -- just an invitation to be 
> curious and willing to explore what's there to appreciate in the 
> moment.
>
> still rainy in Seattle,
> Peggy
>
> ________________________________
> Peggy Holman
> The Open Circle Company
> 15347 SE 49th Place
> Bellevue, WA  98006
> (425) 746-6274
>
> www.opencirclecompany.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison & Jim Baensch" 
> <mbody at iinet.net.au>
> To: <OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 1:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [OSLIST] OST and POP (was: The Pros and Cons of OST)
>
>
>> Hi Nancy,
>> Whatever works best overall for each person or relationship is the  
>> way to go, I reckon.
>> For about 20 years until the mid 1980s I felt fairly depressed.
>> One saving grace for me around 1985 was giving up focussing on 
>> positivity.
>> That allowed me to drop into the depression and feel it even more  
>> fully than I had allowed myself before.
>> It was such a relief not to be trying to cheer up or even look for  
>> the positive.
>> But it might be that some people are more suited to positivity than  
>> me, so I'm not prescribing my approach for others.
>>
>> Nowadays I realise that I have difficulty discerning the difference 
>> between "that beast" you write of feeding  and what is positive.
>> Many things and experiences I might regard as 'negative' one moment  
>> could be 'positive' the next, and vice versa.
>>
>> In my bodywork practice, there is value in attending to all parts of  
>> a situation or process.
>> I work gently with a client's body to ever so slightly exaggerate 
>> postural eccentricities and support positions of comfort.
>> Then the body usually returns to greater balance and freedom.
>> If we didn't focus on the 'negative', we'd miss that opportunity.
>>
>> Open Space Technology appeals to me because all parts of a system are 
>> accepted and pretty well all voices have space to speak.
>> In my experience, participants given the opportunity generally come  
>> to some resolution even (and maybe especially) where there is  
>> conflict around.
>>
>> Until Tuesday I might be out of email contact , but will connect  
>> during that time if I can.
>> I'm enjoying this conversation and other topics on the list very much.
>> Thanks for your part in it,
>> Allison.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 23/11/2005, at 9:36 PM, Nancy Weatherhead wrote:
>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> This is a very interesting discussion and one I have to say I have 
>>> explored
>>> rather thoroughly.  I have experienced process work and... I do  
>>> agree that
>>> comparisons are not generally worthwhile.  However, I will quote  
>>> (or more
>>> likely mis-quote) another saying... 'spirit goes where attention  
>>> flows'.
>>>
>>> Ignoring the 'negative' (if you actually are aware it is there) is 
>>> actually
>>> a form of attention and will generally 'feed' that beast... and... 
>>> staying
>>> in that place can most definitely send one on a long journey into  
>>> pain.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, focusing on what is 'positive' actually does have
>>> benefits.  It generates enthusiasm, health, wellbeing, enjoyment of 
>>> life.
>>>
>>> And both exist at all times in life and living.  My personal  
>>> experiences of
>>> OST have always been deeply positive.
>>>
>>> Thanks for inviting this discussion,
>>> Nancy
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of  
>>> Change
>>> Management Toolbook
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 3:42 AM
>>> To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
>>> Subject: OST and POP (was: The Pros and Cons of OST)
>>>
>>> On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:11:54 +1100, Allison & Jim Baensch
>>> <mbody at iinet.net.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>> My second paper at the conference will be about high and low dreams 
>>>> -
>>>> a paper related to Process Oriented Psychology (Arnold Mindell and
>>>> colleagues).
>>>> So I am aware of the benefits of not just focussing on the positives
>>>> of a situation.
>>>> Thanks for your tasty response,
>>>> Allison.
>>>
>>> Hello Allison,
>>>
>>> welcome to the list and thanks for your input. I am thrilled of the
>>> combination of the two sessions you will host at the conference:
>>> Open Space Technology and Process Oriented Psychology.
>>>
>>> I have been working with OST for a while and just started a couple of
>>> months ago to involve myself into POP, attending a training with Max
>>> Schupbach. What one usually does is to compare (even if you don't  
>>> want to
>>> compare), and one starts to compare on different levels. I, for  
>>> example,
>>> compare the process level of OST gatherings and POP (unfortunately  
>>> I have
>>> not yet been exposed to an open forum, but rather to 20-40 people
>>> processes). More interesting for me, I also compare the meta level.
>>>
>>> What I found out is that the underlying assumptions and the  
>>> foundationss
>>> of OST and POP match somehow. We just had an interesting discussion  
>>> in the
>>> German OS list about the application of Quantum Physics (QP) to 
>>> social
>>> processes. POP refers to QP as its main founding theory. In the 
>>> literature
>>> on OST, QP has not been mentioned (at least not that I know),  
>>> although the
>>> principles, particular the "What ever happens..." are deeply  
>>> quantum. I
>>> like the analogies to QP, but as I have learned from physicists,  
>>> they are
>>> just analogies / models, and that there is no computer in the world 
>>> which
>>> can calculate whether quantum effects guide large systems. My main 
>>> critic
>>> of POP is that they (sometimes) take QP not as a model, but as a  
>>> guiding
>>> principle for groups. Although that sounds nice, it is not  
>>> supported by
>>> current physics, which can only prove the validity of QP to atomic 
>>> and
>>> molecular systems.
>>>
>>> On the other side, OST (and Appreciative Inquiry/AI) have a lot of
>>> references to Social Constructivism (SC) and Neurobiology, while  
>>> POP has
>>> more implicit assumptions of SC.
>>>
>>> OST, then, has its foundation in Complexity or Chaos Theory os 
>>> Systems
>>> Thinking (ST). I always feel that ST as a guiding principle is  
>>> closer to
>>> the reality of larger social systems then QP. Maybe it will turn  
>>> out that
>>> ST is a macro description of QP. POP does not speak in system terms  
>>> but in
>>> quantum terms.
>>>
>>> However, the practices and the processes are very different. In  
>>> POP, you
>>> have the facilitator as an explicit role (which can shift from  
>>> person to
>>> person, because POP assumes non-local roles). In OST you basically  
>>> don't
>>> have a facilitator (in German, we speak instead of a "Begleiter",  
>>> which
>>> means somebody who goes along with somebody or something).
>>>
>>> Another difference between the two processes is the degree to which
>>> conflicts are verbalized and addressed. What I like about OST and  
>>> AI is
>>> the ease with which tensions are dealt with. As a consequence, people
>>> might see that there are alternatives to dealing with problems and
>>> conflicts in a violent manner. In POP processes, I have seen a lot of
>>> verbal violence, and grief. One can argue wether this is not part  
>>> of life,
>>> and OST and AI neglect the deep divide which exists between people.  
>>> As my
>>> spiritual teacher Stephen Gilligan has said: "Life is beautiful, but
>>> sometimes it hurts like hell."
>>>
>>> You see, I have only questions, no answers at all. I am fascinated  
>>> of both
>>> approaches, and would like to hear from you how do you perceive the
>>> difference (and the similarities). If you could send me your 
>>> presentation
>>> of POP, I would be quite pleased.
>>>
>>> Go on! With best regards
>>> Holger Nauheimer
>>>
>>> Change Facilitation sro
>>> Panenska 3
>>> 81103 Bratislava
>>> Slovakia
>>> http://www.change-management-toolbook.com
>>>
>>> *
>>> *
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>>
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