OST and POP (was: The Pros and Cons of OST)

[Funda Oral]

Holger,

I don't know much about POP but i can try to give an answer to
your following comment :

"OST and AI neglect the deep divide which exists between people. As my
spiritual teacher Stephen Gilligan has said: "Life is beautiful, but
sometimes it hurts like hell."

My life experience every moment shows me that this divide which we think
that exists between people exist only in our minds. I always say myself :
"how silly, how blind i am that i don't see how close we are...."

Life hurts because we completely misunderstand, mistaught our role and
function and place in life.

According to me, OST invites people together to realize that  there is
*no division,
* no need to be hurt
* no need to determine a fix place for ourselves
* no need to take sides,

we can solve everything together, in diaogue, in movement, in a dynamic 
process.

Funda





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Change Management Toolbook" <holger at CHANGE-MANAGEMENT-TOOLBOOK.COM>
To: <OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 9:41 AM
Subject: OST and POP (was: The Pros and Cons of OST)


> On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:11:54 +1100, Allison & Jim Baensch
> <mbody at iinet.net.au> wrote:
>
>>My second paper at the conference will be about high and low dreams -
>>a paper related to Process Oriented Psychology (Arnold Mindell and
>>colleagues).
>>So I am aware of the benefits of not just focussing on the positives
>>of a situation.
>>Thanks for your tasty response,
>>Allison.
>
> Hello Allison,
>
> welcome to the list and thanks for your input. I am thrilled of the
> combination of the two sessions you will host at the conference:
> Open Space Technology and Process Oriented Psychology.
>
> I have been working with OST for a while and just started a couple of
> months ago to involve myself into POP, attending a training with Max
> Schupbach. What one usually does is to compare (even if you don't want to
> compare), and one starts to compare on different levels. I, for example,
> compare the process level of OST gatherings and POP (unfortunately I have
> not yet been exposed to an open forum, but rather to 20-40 people
> processes). More interesting for me, I also compare the meta level.
>
> What I found out is that the underlying assumptions and the foundationss
> of OST and POP match somehow. We just had an interesting discussion in the
> German OS list about the application of Quantum Physics (QP) to social
> processes. POP refers to QP as its main founding theory. In the literature
> on OST, QP has not been mentioned (at least not that I know), although the
> principles, particular the "What ever happens..." are deeply quantum. I
> like the analogies to QP, but as I have learned from physicists, they are
> just analogies / models, and that there is no computer in the world which
> can calculate whether quantum effects guide large systems. My main critic
> of POP is that they (sometimes) take QP not as a model, but as a guiding
> principle for groups. Although that sounds nice, it is not supported by
> current physics, which can only prove the validity of QP to atomic and
> molecular systems.
>
> On the other side, OST (and Appreciative Inquiry/AI) have a lot of
> references to Social Constructivism (SC) and Neurobiology, while POP has
> more implicit assumptions of SC.
>
> OST, then, has its foundation in Complexity or Chaos Theory os Systems
> Thinking (ST). I always feel that ST as a guiding principle is closer to
> the reality of larger social systems then QP. Maybe it will turn out that
> ST is a macro description of QP. POP does not speak in system terms but in
> quantum terms.
>
> However, the practices and the processes are very different. In POP, you
> have the facilitator as an explicit role (which can shift from person to
> person, because POP assumes non-local roles). In OST you basically don't
> have a facilitator (in German, we speak instead of a "Begleiter", which
> means somebody who goes along with somebody or something).
>
> Another difference between the two processes is the degree to which
> conflicts are verbalized and addressed. What I like about OST and AI is
> the ease with which tensions are dealt with. As a consequence, people
> might see that there are alternatives to dealing with problems and
> conflicts in a violent manner. In POP processes, I have seen a lot of
> verbal violence, and grief. One can argue wether this is not part of life,
> and OST and AI neglect the deep divide which exists between people. As my
> spiritual teacher Stephen Gilligan has said: "Life is beautiful, but
> sometimes it hurts like hell."
>
> You see, I have only questions, no answers at all. I am fascinated of both
> approaches, and would like to hear from you how do you perceive the
> difference (and the similarities). If you could send me your presentation
> of POP, I would be quite pleased.
>
> Go on! With best regards
> Holger Nauheimer
>
> Change Facilitation sro
> Panenska 3
> 81103 Bratislava
> Slovakia
> http://www.change-management-toolbook.com
>
> *
> *
> ==========================================================
> OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> ------------------------------
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
> view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html
>
> To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
> http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist 

*
*
==========================================================
OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
------------------------------
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html

To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist