NO Such Thing as non-self-organizing system

[Harrison Owen]

Shay Wrote: Let's take this whole idea of survival of the fittest. My
problem is I don't believe it.


Neither do I. More to the point I think it is a misunderstanding and
probably a misrepresentation of Darwin. More accurate, in my view, is "a
search for fitness." The notion is that internal to all entities, quarks to
humans, is an effort to fit better with themselves and with their
environment. And that is always an adaptive process -- which is why the
folks at the Santa Fe Institute refer to self-organizing systems as Complex
ADAPTIVE Systems. The process is also largely collaborative, more symbiosis
than open warfare. The reason is simple. It is more energy efficient and
less risky. Of course clashes can occur, and sometimes they are lethal, but
lethal conflict can often be avoided if there is enough room. Which is why
we have Open Space. It is also why I believe the primary gift of Open Space
is Peace. It is also probably true that those who fit better survive better,
but fitness is the first order. So what's the problem?

Harrison

Harrison Owen
7808 River Falls Drive
Potomac, Maryland   20845
Phone 301-365-2093

Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com
Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org
Personal website http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hhowen/index.htm
OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives Visit:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html



-----Original Message-----
From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Seamus
McInerney
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 2:01 PM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: NO Such Thing as non-self-organizing system

Life is by it's very nature self-organising. It is about adapting to
circumstances.

Let's take this whole idea of survival of the fittest. My problem is I
don't believe it. Even the fittest of organisations will not survive if
they do not adapt to a changing environment. And how do environments
change? Well people, by and large, change them. Allowing for nature that
is. Empires don't last because people start to organise themselves around
the rules and regulations of the center. The people have to a large extent
ignored the Catholic Churches teaching on contraception. Tax payers will
ignore the tax system if it becomes too onerous and create themselves an
untaxable hidden, economy.

Really clever politicians/leaders spot these VMEME changes as they are
arising and announce new directions/policies at just the right moment. Bush
has the support of a large section of the American voters (not necessarily
the people). Blair is the same. But Blair has to deal with a media that
feels itself more able to question the status quo (based on my impression
of the US media, I know). This does not mean that there is not a whole
bunch of self-organising going on all over the states.

The invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq has changed the environment. Now we
have to watch out for our "friends" as well as our enemies. We here in
Ireland have a political establishment that is scared as hell that US
companies will pull out of Ireland if they upset the White House. So they
do a bit of self-organising and start smudging their words so you have no
idea what they think. It's a bit like telling your spouse they look really
great in that T-shirt.

Just look how once high class neighbourhoods become run down. The rich move
little by little to the better hoods. The price falls a little at a time.
Until it's a low income zone. Look how quickly fashion changes. And how
hard schools that insist on uniforms find it to keep pace. Each generation
self-organises just to be different from their parents. My boys are growing
their hair long, just to be different from me! Heh, lads. I got photos.

Do the cable channels really believe that people will pay for the same
repeats on 500 channels for ever. Do coffee houses really believe that
coffee houses are anything more than a fashion. As we in Ireland are about
to get our first STARBUCKs this year, I'll bet the alternative is already
beginning to emerge in LA or San Fran, out of the never-ending collective
creative genius of humanity.

Where ever one or more are gathered...... someone will think it's cool, and
different, and new and so will their mates. They'll spread the word and
wooosh, it'll be. Energy flows. Force gets resisted, eventually. But change
is enevitable.

Shay

At 14:38 17/03/2005, you wrote:

>Artur Wrote: I think we are seeing reality from two different points of
>view (it is the same reality...).
>
>
>
>Precisely! If I may put some words in your mouth I would guess that you
>feel that the various acts of the several players establish the
>organizational context. They organize, they set procedure, they out line
>protocols they essentially create the organization. Although it may also
>be true that there are also elements of self organization.
>
>
>
>I find myself looking at precisely the same organizational reality and
>coming to a different conclusion. I feel that the organizational context
>is fundamentally established by the powers of self organization, although
>it may be true that certain individuals and groups make every effort to
>organize, establish procedures, outline protocols, and manage the result.
>
>
>
>I suppose someday you could prove which view is correct, but that day may
>be a long time in coming. In the interim I think we are left with an
>interesting situation in which proof is not possible, and so we are at
>liberty to look at things either way depending on what makes the most
>sense to us. Tradition is certainly on your side, and for sure the
>majority of people in organizations of all sorts would agree with you.
>
>
>
>Personally I have found myself becoming increasingly uncomfortable with
>the traditional view. Perhaps it is the anarchist or revolutionary in me,
>but I honestly feel it goes deeper than that.  For me the critical points
>of discomfort appear in the anomalies I perceive. Tradition says that
>organizations are created by some individual or group sitting down to
>design the mechanisms and then implementing them in time and space.
>However, whenever I have attempted to do a careful natural history of how
>things actually occurred I have found that what is said and what happened
>are at some critical variance. We say there was a nice, linear, sequential
>process. But upon closer inspection it appears (at least to me) that the
>clean linearity, to say nothing of rational process was imposed after the
>fact. In the moment it was pretty much of a mess which was cleaned up when
>the story was told.
>
>
>
>And mess of course is the word we use to describe a situation that is out
>of control, is not following the plan. Mess is also the way many people
>have used to describe the generative situation for a self-organizing
>system. Another word would be chaos.
>
>
>
>So two ways of looking at things. And the way I have chosen, almost
>reluctantly, just makes more sense to me. I say reluctantly because it did
>not happen over night, and it certainly has gotten me in a world of
>trouble, misunderstanding and marginalization with many of my colleagues
>and friends. Frankly it would be a lot easier if I could just go along
>with the traditional view.
>
>
>
>When I say it makes more sense I have a number of specifics in mind. With
>reference to this particular community and Open Space Technology, I long
>ago came to the awareness that if the Traditional view was correct, Open
>Space, as we all have experienced it, simply could not happen. Everybody
>knows that inviting a large group of antagonistic people to solve a
>complex issue without the benefit of pre-planned agenda, an army of
>facilitators managing a carefully controlled process was insanity. And yet
>this is an insanity we all have experienced on countless occasions. Worse
>yet it works. And it shouldn t, But it does. So I asked my self What view
>of reality would allow for Open Space? And the answer that came (as
>everybody here on OSLIST knows ad nauseam) was the primacy of
>self-organization. In a world viewed as a totally, all levels, all
>sectors, all scales self-organizing system what happens in Open Space is
>predictable. In a world understood as the mainline organizational
>tradition would under stand it Open Space is impossible.
>
>
>
>But one might reasonably ask is it legitimate to extrapolate from this
>funny Open Space experience to the larger world of traditional
>organizations? I think so, and that has been the adventure to date. And it
>certainly makes sense to me. But others will think differently, which
>makes for a good conversation.
>
>
>
>Harrison
>
>
>
>Harrison Owen
>
>7808 River Falls Drive
>
>Potomac, Maryland   20845
>
>Phone 301-365-2093
>
>Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com
>
>Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org
>
>Personal website http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hhowen/index.htm
><mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
>
>To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives Visit:
>http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Artur
Silva
>Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 6:38 PM
>To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
>Subject: Re: NO Such Thing as non-self-organizing system
>
>
>
>A very short comment in another 10 minutes, Harrison.
>
>
>
>I think we are seeing reality from two different points of view (it it is
>the same reality...). If I understand well, you are too much concerned
>with bosses that think they are in charge. I don't think that those "in
>charge" control organizations.
>
>
>
>I am thinking more of something similar to the "invisible hand" - rules,
>regulations, assumptions taken for granted, etc that condition you,
>myself, and all the other humans. We don't act like quarks and quasars,
>and the same rules don't necesseraly apply..
>
>
>
>I insist that reading Argyris (in Action Science) is very conveniente. He
>shows how, in organizations, a Model 1 of behaviour is always present, and
>that it closes the space as it closes communication.
>
>
>
>The merite of Open Space IMHO is that it reduces or supresses Model 1 and
>enhances Model 2.
>
>
>
>But that would need a very big explanation that  I have not the time now
>to give.
>
>
>
>But, don't worry - some day YOU will see the light ;-)
>
>
>
>Warm regards
>
>
>
>Artur
>
>Harrison Owen <hhowen at comcast.net> wrote:
>Artur Wrote: This allows me to say that I agree with you (except perhaps
>in your mantra, because I still think that there are some organizations -
>like the Catholic Church and most armies, some companies and even
>countries - that have a lot of success in acting as closed systems - even
>if there are also open processes happening in them.
>
>
>Do you Yahoo!?
><http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/mobile/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/mai
ldemo>Take
>Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. * *
>==========================================================
>OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU ------------------------------ To
>subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of
>oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
>http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about
>OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
>* * ==========================================================
>OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU ------------------------------ To
>subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of
>oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
>http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about
>OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist

Crossroads Facilitation
50 Carrigdhoun, Waterpark, Carrigaline, Co. Cork
www.crossroadsfacilitation.ie
"Building bridges and getting you over them"

*
*
==========================================================
OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
------------------------------
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html

To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist

*
*
==========================================================
OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
------------------------------
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html

To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist

>From  Thu Mar 17 13:43:19 2005
Message-Id: <THU.17.MAR.2005.134319.0800.>
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:43:19 -0800
Reply-To: chris at chriscorrigan.com
To: OSLIST <OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>
From: Chris Corrigan <chris.corrigan at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Success
In-Reply-To: <4239AA91.3070901 at innergy.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:04:33 -0500, R. Duff Doel <duff at innergy.ca> wrote:
> "Some people will do anything
> to maintain control and avoid success."
>

Often people expect big things from organizational development
"interventions."  They wouldn't do so otherwise.  Retreats, planning
sessions, Open Space forums...all come with the expectation that doing
something significant will change things significantly.

In working with sponsors I do have conversations about what
transformation really means and how willing people are to transform
themselves to meet the new world they are wanting to be born.  There
is a real stretch in this work for people, to go into somewhere new
while not abandoning what they know - the "safe ground" - even if the
safe ground is no longer serving them very well.

Fear, trust, openness, chaordic confidence...all of these are
emotions, practices and states we need to grapple with to open
ourselves to transformation.  We need to be able to embody change in
order to be there to welcome it when it arrives.

And so for me success is relative, but what I really invite people to
stretch into is that place where they can embody the success they
want.  If they can't then we have to get real about what we're willing
to do.

But if they CAN get really big and offer themselves up for change,
unbelievable things can happen.

Good question, Duff.

Chris

--
-------------------------
CHRIS CORRIGAN
Consultation - Facilitation
Open Space Technology

Weblog: http://www.chriscorrigan.com/parkinglot
Site: http://www.chriscorrigan.com

*
*
==========================================================
OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
------------------------------
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html

To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist

>From  Thu Mar 17 13:51:43 2005
Message-Id: <THU.17.MAR.2005.135143.0800.>
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:51:43 -0800
Reply-To: chris at chriscorrigan.com
To: OSLIST <OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>
From: Chris Corrigan <chris.corrigan at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Who said OS-facilitators doing nothing?
In-Reply-To: <NOEPIGMAFNFLGJPILKKFIEOIDEAA.thomas at openspaceconsulting.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Years ago. Michael Herman gifted me with a line to use when OST
participants ask me why I'm not doing more:

"When you invite people to take responsibility for issues they really
care about, management gets real easy."

I've used that line COUNTLESS times!

AND...I've walked my share of miles too!

Chris


On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:46:02 +0100, Thomas Herrmann
<thomas at openspaceconsulting.com> wrote:
> Dear friends in Open Space
> Today I opened space for some folks and a person assisted me to learn some
> more about OST. She wore a "step-measurer" and found out that she walked 5
> km´s during the day!! I probably didn´t walk that much, but anyhow.
> Greetings to all!
> Thomas Herrmann         Phone +46 (0)709-98 97 81
> Open Space Consulting   Fax   +46 (0)300-713 89
> Pensévägen 4
> 434 46 Kungsbacka, Sweden
> Email: thomas at openspaceconsulting.com
> www.openspaceconsulting.com
>
> *
> *
> ==========================================================
> OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> ------------------------------
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
> view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html
>
> To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
> http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
>


--
-------------------------
CHRIS CORRIGAN
Consultation - Facilitation
Open Space Technology

Weblog: http://www.chriscorrigan.com/parkinglot
Site: http://www.chriscorrigan.com

*
*
==========================================================
OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
------------------------------
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html

To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist