Survival of the Cooperative

Thu Feb 10 09:01:57 PST 2005

I understand the "desire" to want world peace, blah blah blah.........but I simply don't think it's realistic.  Unfortunately there are many people in this world who don't think as rationally and as beautifully as Gandhi and Mandela (people like Saddam, Hitler, UBL, etc.) and I don't think they will participate in constructive intervention.  That was proven by years and years of sanctions on Saddam that obviously didn't work.  After years of no cooperation when you've tried everything........don't you finally have to use force against idiots like this to make the world a better place?  I don't think there is any other way.....
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Filiz Telek 
  To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU 
  Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 9:40 AM
  Subject: Re: Survival of the Cooperative

  We would be naïve to think that there are only good guys against the bad guys in this story Judy. Force is force, whether you impose it on innocent people or tyrannies.. And it will only come back as force in return. Simple scientific fact I would say. Not to mention how many innocent people got killed during this war.

  What happened to Gandhis and Mandelas? I think they proved the whole world what powers can be found in stillness, peaceful activism sprung from within. Nothing do with a group hug but genuine, molecular change that comes as a force of nature. If we are going to talk about intervention, let us talk about constructive and participative intervention, not a destructive one. 

  filiz

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  From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Spady's
  Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 5:24 PM
  To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
  Subject: Re: Survival of the Cooperative

  Funda writes:

  "a long term democracy (at least freedom of expression for everybody) can not be createdby force."

  The big question I have for you to think about is...Who has force been used against in the Iraq war?  It isn't the people who are trying to build the democratic society.  The U.S. and it's allies forced the tyrants out so that the Iraqi people are no longer supressed and can live in long term democracy.  So.......how can you say that it won't work??  You have to break it down to who the force is being used on.  Can the tyrants like Saddam freely express themselves??........absolutely not.  He gave up that right when he chose to kill innocent people.

  I guess "time will tell" if the long term democracy works in Iraq but at this point, I don't think you can accurately conclude that it won't......

  As for your comments on why we can't discuss 'this and that' and all have a group hug........do you honestly think that's even possible with people like Saddam??.....or UBL?  Please.........

  Judy

    ----- Original Message ----- 

    From: Funda Oral 

    To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU 

    Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 6:57 AM

    Subject: Survival of the Cooperative

    from the essay :

    "The researchers at the Santa Fe Institute have denominated self-organizing
    systems Complex Adaptive Systems. The key word is adaptive, which indicates
    that the system, be that molecular or human, is constantly adapting to its
    internal and external environment seeking a better fit, a better way of
    getting along in the world. This might also be called learning, for the
    system is not only finding better ways to be, it is also remembering them
    for future use. In short a body of knowledge is being built which will
    enable higher levels of survival."

    "Collective consciousness in this case is not to be confused with deep shared consciousness manifest in the Jungian archetypes, but rather a functional intelligence that appeared capable of observing a situation, consider the options, and then take concerted action - all without a word spoken and in an incredibly short period of time (minutes). How this works, I don't have a clue, but in the situations where the collective consciousness became manifest I found myself reminded of the behavioral shift of the ant colony when they moved from random search to well ordered columns, bringing home the tart, all of which seemed to happen with the snap of a finger. I suppose if ants can do it, humans might be capable as well."

    some reflections onwars, cooperation, open space etc ;

    I agree that a sudden need or crises cancause quick self organisation and a shift in collective consciousness (i.e wars, natural disasters).

    However self organisation for aquick reaction doesn't mean that a healthy community ( democracy, peace, long term cooperation, civilization)

    has been built.

    I studied business and not psychology or sociology but from life experiencesi know that "fear" prevents a open space, a long term democracy

    (at least freedom of expression for everybody) can not be createdby force.

    Wars are different then naturaldisasters as they are made by human.

    Survivalshould be the easiest achievement when a group of human being comes together. So the big question for me is why we are still at that level 

    after 14M years? why we can not discuss how we can develop alltogether in peace,joy and richness? why we don't discuss how we can 

    establish a better cooperation, better ways of exchangeamong different cultures, religions, regions, countries etc ? 

    Funda

      ----- Original Message ----- 

      From: Jack Ricchiuto 

      To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE..EDU 

      Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 4:20 AM

      Subject: Re: Survival of the Cooperative

      Reflecting the way ecologists today are starting to redefine "fitness", author Robert Ulanowicz defines fitness as "the ability of a species to play a role in the web of ecological processes."

      Jack

      ~~~~~~~~~~

      jack ricchiuto

      two.one.six/three.seven.three/seven.four.seven.five

      www.designinglife.com / www.appreciativeleadership..org 

        ------------Original Message------------

        From: Steve Gawron <gawron at megsinet.net>

        To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU

        Date: Wed, Feb-9-2005 6:02 PM

        Subject: Re: Survival of the Cooperative

        Hello Don and all,

        There is an interesting book by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi which supports that

        concept of survival of ideas in a Darwinian context.  The book is called

        "Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience", ISBN 0-06-016253-8

        In brief, a "flow" experience is akin to reading a book you cannot put down.

        I hope you enjoy the read.

        Steve Gawron

        ----- Original Message -----

        From: "Don Ferretti" <dferrett at placer.ca.gov>

        To: <OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>

        Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 4:34 PM

        Subject: Survival of the Cooperative

        > I can give you a lot of detail to back this up but I will not take up

        > air time here to do that. I just wanted to say that I know for a fact

        > that the "survival of the fittest" mantra was not even spoken by Darwin.

        > But, his whole body of work seems to have been boiled down to that idea.

        > I have my theory as to why that is. But, if you really look at all of

        > that work, the role of cooperation, adaptation and flexibility  plays a

        > much more important role. We did not make it this far through

        > competition, but through pervasive cooperation.

        > 

        > http://placer.networkofcare.org

        > www.placer.ca.gov/cfc

        > First 5 - Placer CFC

        > Don Ferretti - Director

        > 530.886.1824

        > 530.886.1810 (fax)

        > 

        > *

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