Open Space & Anti-Americanism

Wed Feb 9 07:45:03 PST 2005

Thank you, Masud, and "hear, hear"! I wish I could express myself as well and as succinctly as you have done.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Masud Sheikh" <masheikh at cogeco.ca>
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: Open Space & Anti-Americanism
Date:         Wed, 9 Feb 2005 10:39:49 -0500

>
> Steve, thank for your email.
> We may need to agree to disagree soon.
>
> Many decades ago, Alfred Sloan (iconic CEO of GM) said "What is good for
> General Motors is good for America". Similarly, the present U.S.
> administration seems to believe that what is good for corporations and the
> rich, is good for all Americans; and what is good for America, is good for
> the rest of the world.
>
> I was a college student in Pakistan during the Vietnam War. Unlike many
> students, for a long time I accepted the American justification for that
> war, and changed my views fairly late in that war.
>
> During the last decade, I have done a lot of reading. In one of his books,
> M. Scott Peck (author of "The Road Less Traveled") talks about the lying
> that has become an accepted part of American administrations. He conjectures
> that the lie about the Gulf of Tonkin incident during Vietnam War (which I
> believe was used as the excuse for Congress to declare war) was perhaps the
> start of the slippery slope. The lies have been more pronounced in American
> foreign policy - I believe partly because many U.S. foreign operations have
> been covert and through the CIA.
>
> It is difficult for many Americans to accept that they have been lied to, in
> the democracy in which they live. These American are as much in denial as
> those Muslims who believe that 9/11 could not have been perpetrated by other
> Muslims.
>
> Specifically to me, your following comments are troubling:
> 1. Your saying "it was a small group of U.N. member nations lead by the U.S.
> who acted upon the U.N. edict. Opposed by some members, but hardly,
> unilateral".
>
> Sounds like "The good guys" (America and its allies) doing the "right thing"
>
>
> It was not only "some members" (of the Security Council) that opposed; it
> was a clear majority, in spite of U.S. arm-twisting. More important, global
> public opinion was opposed. Also opposed were key American weapons
> inspectors (such as Scott Ritter) plus U.N. Secretary General as well as
> other mediators (Hans Blix etc) who were disregarded, and made fun of.
>
> 2. Also troubling is your view that Sistani's edict (an Iraqi who opposed
> the tyranny of Saddam Hussein, and forced the occupying power to hold
> elections for a constituent assembly) was akin to the statement of King
> George "a tyrant who .... tried to impose his will upon people in America.".
>
> "The messiah/s" for any community or society can only arise from within. If
> you see Sistani's fatwa akin to that of a colonial "tyrant", then Iraq has
> lesser hope than I thought it had.
>
> 3. Perhaps most troubling is your final "All we seek is to share our
> liberty". It sounds sanctimonious. America under Bush is focused on
> security, which trumps liberty whenever there is tension between the two.
> Replacement of Ashcroft by Gonzales is the most evident manifestation of
> this fact.
>
> I do not accept Bush's belief that America has been given a mandate by
> "God", "from beyond the stars" to spread liberty and freedom. He seems to
> truly believe that God speaks to him as "HE" spoke to Jesus and Moses. Iraqi
> insurgents believe that the same God (re-named Allah) spoke to Muslim Sunni
> clerics to defend Iraq against the invaders.
>
> And a few minor points:
> - I do not "misunderstand American Democracy". I believe those who believe
> that (any) democracy is limited to casting votes periodically misunderstand
> democracy.
>
> There is another large group of Americans who do not understand democracy:
> These are citizens who are unconcerned that nine out of ten candidates who
> get elected in America are those that spend the largest amount of money.
>
> - What you read in Wikepedia about Fatwas is generally correct. However, it
> particularly applies to Sunnis. Shias tend to have some sort of hierarchy,
> although it is not global as with Catholics.
>
> Take care,
> Masud
>
> There is something called learning at a rather small level of organisation.
> At a much higher gestalt level, learning is called evolution - Gregory
> Bateson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Gawron [mailto:gawron at megsinet.net]
> Sent: February 8, 2005 2:58 PM
> Subject: Re: Open Space & Anti-Americanism
>
> Hello Masud and all,
>
> First, I appreciate your thoughts as expressed in your e-mail.  I would like
> to respond to your questions.
>
> 1) Can open space be opened by force?
>    If open space needed to be opened at all, then it would not by definition
> be opened in the first place.  The example you gave of a CEO and consultant
> is not one I share.  Whatever the actions taken by the consultant on behalf
> of the CEO, the CEO still owns the problem.  If he does not correct a
> dysfunctional department, he will soon be relieved of his responsibilities
> by the shareholders and stakeholders of his company.  The consultant may or
> may not join him.
>    In the case you made for unilateralist, it was the United Nations who
> warned Saddam to comply with the consent of the members nations.  When he
> did not comply, it was a small group of U.N. member nations lead by the U.S.
> who acted upon the U.N. edict.  Opposed by some members, but  hardly,
> unilateral.
>
> 2) ... does not loyalty to American ideals demand dissent of policies that
> disregard those ideals.
> You might misunderstand American democracy.  Our democracy is based on the
> premise that if a majority of its citizens disagree with the leaders and
> their actions, they have the right to change those leaders.  If you look at
> last November's election, a majority of the citizens agreed with the current
> leadership.  There was much dissention but the citizens were free to choose
> and spoke through voting.
>
> I looked up the definition of fatwa on this site:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatwa
> I quote, a fatwa ... " is a legal pronouncement in Islam, issued by a
> religious law specialist on a specific issue. Usually a fatwa is issued at
> the request of an individual or a judge to settle a question where fiqh,
> Islamic jurisprudence, is unclear. A scholar capable of issuing fataawa is
> known as a Mufti.
>
> Because there is no central Islamic priesthood, there is also no unanimously
> accepted method to determine who can issue a fatwa and who cannot, leading
> some Islamic scholars to complain that too many people feel qualified to
> issue fatwas."
>
> There is no parallel to this style of edict in the American form of
> democracy.  As a citizen, are guaranteed by our constitution the right to
> accept or ignore any edict whether it be the government, corporation, any
> religious leader, or other citizen.  You must, however, respect the right of
> the other citizens to present their opinions.  In our country, disputes are
> handled under a judicial system.  While it is often inefficient, it
> guarantees that all parties concerned have a right to voice their opinion on
> the matter.
>
> The United States was born when a tyrant, King George of England, tried to
> impose his will upon people in America.  Even then, there were people who
> dissented of behalf of King George. (we call them Canadians)  We still
> respect their choices and consider them our friends though we often
> disagree.  The fatwa you cited sound more akin to a statement of King George
> not of Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, or Patrick Henry.
>
> The people of Iraq will be in charge of their country when the Americans
> leave.  They will own their problems and hopefully will seek help from all
> nations around the world.
>
> As a free and democratic nation, the U.S. has made many mistakes.  All we
> seek is to share our liberty.  I look forward to future discussions with
> you.
>
> Steve Gawron
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Masud Sheikh" <masheikh at cogeco.ca>
> To: <OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 11:57 AM
> Subject: FW: Open Space & Anti-Americanism
>
> > Steve,
> > My questions below are not rhetorical, and I do hope that you will take
> them
> > in the spirit in which I am trying to ask them:
> >
> > 1) Can space be opened by force?
> > That sounds a lot like a CEO telling a consultant "that department is
> > managed and controlled very badly. I want you to open up space in it"
> >
> > Of course, in the case of American involvement in Iraq, the related
> question
> > is "Was Bush authorized to behave like the CEO of planet Earth?"
> >
> > Do remember that most of the criticism has been about American
> > administration's unilateralism.
> >
> > 2) While I empathize with American nationalism (fuelled and converted by
> > Bush & Co after 9/11 as support of American policy), does not loyalty to
> > American ideals demand dissent of policies that disregard those ideals?
> >
> > My opinions:
> > 1) I am afraid that the right thing was not done before something horrible
> > went wrong. Abandoning Afghanistan after the Soviets were driven out (at
> the
> > end of 1980s) was the wrong thing to do in Afghanistan. Manipulating
> Islamic
> > religious feelings (and American policy was at the forefront of doing
> that)
> > was the wrong thing to do in fighting the Soviets. Similarly, manipulating
> > post 9/11 fearful feelings of American citizens is wrong now.
> >
> > 2) Re Iraq, it is still too early to say what the long-term impact of
> these
> > elections will be. Also, the recently held election was not the preference
> > of Bush & Co. They were forced into accepting these by Ayatollah Sistani,
> > called "Ayatollah Democracy" in articles last year. Here is the
> Ayatollah's
> > Fatwa insisting on elections:
> >
> > "The Occupational Authority in no way has the authority to choose members
> > for the drafting committee of a Basic Law. In no way does any authority
> > exist for such a drafting committee to represent the lofty interests of
> the
> > Iraqi people or to translate into law the wishes and basic identity of the
> > Iraqi people, the pillars of which are the glorious faith of Islam and
> > society's values. The current [American] plan discussed is fundamentally
> > unacceptable.
> >
> > Accordingly, popular elections are necessary so that each Iraqi who is of
> > voting age can choose his representative for a constituent assembly. And
> > then any Basic Law written by this assembly must be approved by a national
> > referendum. It is incumbent upon all believers with their utmost
> commitment
> > to demand this, and asserting the truth of this path is the best way that
> > they can participate in this process."
> >
> > He sounds like a re-incarnated founding father of America.
> >
> > Take care,
> > Masud Sheikh
> >
> > The world will be saved by individuals of integrity freely joining
> together
> > - Buckminster Fuller
>
> *
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Steve Cochran
Executive Director
Int'l Centre for Leadership Results,
in collaboration with Gettysburg College
Gettysburg PA 17325
717-486-4072
SCochran at LeadershipResults.org
www.LeadershipResults.org

and
Interim Steward,
United States Partnership
for the Decade of Education for Sustainable Development
www.uspartnership.org

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