An OS "critique" and response: Intro to Spiral Dynamics

Sun Aug 28 19:31:31 PDT 2005

Hello Again,

Michael Herman was kind enough to inform me that attachments can't be
sent, so... here's a link to the intro to Spiral Dynamics to which I
referred earlier:
http://www.luminacoaching.com/IntroductiontoSpiralDynamics.htm

Warm regards,
Karen

Karen Sella
www.luminacoaching.com
206.780.2998

-----Original Message-----
From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Eva P
Svensson
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 10:06 AM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: SV: An OS "critique" and response

Hi there,
I wonder if someone would be so kind to explain what 2t or second-tier
and
meme as in green meme means?
:o)
Eva

Bästa hälsningar

Eva P Svensson
EPS Human Invest AB
"Verksamhetsutveckling genom människor skapar långsiktigt välmående
företag
och organisationer!"
Anåsbergsvägen 22, 439 34  ONSALA
Tfn: 0300-615 05, Mobil: 0706-89 85 50
eva at epshumaninvest.se,  www.epshumaninvest.se

-----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
Från: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] För Karen Sella
Skickat: den 27 augusti 2005 07:58
Till: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Ämne: Re: An OS "critique" and response

I would too!  Although I realize that many folks consider 2t to be
flourishing in their circles, as I recently wrote to a friend: 

"Right now, it often seems that “second-tier” is merely a seed that may
or may not have the conditions for existence, but it’s a seed worth
planting and cultivating as best we can until more favorable conditions
exist.  What we learn through each attempt to grow this little seed
helps us create those necessary conditions for its eventual
thriving...makes me think of trees...how they often sprout up regardless
of whether or not we’re tending, but tending can contribute so much to
their growth..."  

That said, my intention isn't to cultivate 2t but rather to pay
attention to the most meaningful, inspired intentions folks have for
themselves and offer whatever methods and resources I can to assist
folks in realizing these... I figure that if folks are leading
meaningful, authentic lives, 2t will pretty much take care of itself... 

Regarding 2t methods as perceived within the integral/sdi community,
aside from meditation, Big Mind, and various methods emphasizing
(trans)personal development, there seems to be a real dearth of "2t"
methods either espoused or practiced within the integral/SDi community,
and many folks are hungering for practical applications, which is why I
introduced Open Space in the first place, since I happen to think that
OS is founded on 2t principles even if the folks in attendance may not
always have the capacity to realize or recognize 2t...   

Of course, I haven't attended any of the workshops offered by Integral
Institute (www.integralinstitute.org), and haven't been following the
Integral Naked (www.integralnaked.org) conversations either, so it's
possible that there are existing methods that are perceived as 2t, or
methods in development of which I am unaware.  

If I learn of any, I'll pass these along...and likewise, please if you
or anyone is aware of any, I'd be interested to learn about these.  

Warm regards,
Karen

Karen Sella
www.luminacoaching.com
206.780.2998

-----Original Message-----
From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Tim
Weidman
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 9:57 PM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: An OS "critique" and response

i would love to know what  group methods these int/sd community members 
consider 2t

On Aug 26, 2005, at 5:55 PM, Karen Sella wrote:

> Brilliant, Peggy! 
>  
> Thank you for taking the time to respond so generously and graciously 
> to Steve Banks.  I completely agree with you. 
>  
> For some time, I have offered the perspective that OS is 
> “2nd-tier“---the principles of OS transcending and including all the 
> potential 1st-tier interactions---to others in the Integral/SDi 
> community who share this misconception that OS is a “green” method.  
>  I have also introduced several “Integral/SDi” folks to Open Space as 
> a practical method congruent with 2nd-tier thinking that allows people

> to more readily embody/enact 2nd-tier, even convening a few Open Space

> events on their behalf, and I’m happy to say that some folks seem to 
> “get it,” even though there are still others who maintain that OS is 
> “green.” 
>  
> One theory I have about this misconception in the realm of integral is

> that most of the folks within the Integral/SDi communities who 
> maintain that OS is “green” have either not experience Open Space or 
> they have experienced Open Space where the center of gravity of the 
> group in the room is green and the “integral” folks in the room are 
> confusing the state/stage of the people in the room with the method

> i.e. the fact that folks may be primarily embodying green during an 
> Open Space event does not mean that the Open Space method is green, 
> just like “Spiral Wizards” tailoring their interactions for the 
> predominately green consciousness of an audience, does not mean that 
> they, the Spiral Wizards, are operating from green consciousness

>  
> In any case, suffice it to say that I really appreciate reading your 
> wonderfully articulated and educated written response.
>  
> Warm regards,
> Karen
>  
>  
> Karen Sella
> www.luminacoaching.com
> 206.780.2998
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of 
> Peggy Holman
> Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 2:55 PM
> To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> Subject: Re: An OS "critique" and response
>  
> Hhmmmm, I notice the attachments aren't attached.  Here are links 
> instead:
>  
> From Steve Banks: 
> http://www.opencirclecompany.com/FromOpenSpaceToIntegralSpace.doc
>  
>  
> My response: http://www.opencirclecompany.com/IntegralOpenSpace.doc
>  
> still sunny in Seattle,
> Peggy
>  
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Peggy Holman
>> To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
>> Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 2:00 PM
>> Subject: [OSLIST] An OS "critique" and response
>>  
>> My friend, Tom Atlee, sent me the attached doc, From Open 
>> Space...egral Space.doc, by Steve Banks.  It struck me as so 
>> misinformed and error filled that I responded with Integral Open 
>> Space.doc.  
>>  
>> Thought you might find both the impressions of a neophyte and my 
>> response of interest.
>>  
>> from sunny Seattle,
>> Peggy
>>  
>> ________________________________
>>  Peggy Holman
>>  The Open Circle Company
>>  15347 SE 49th Place
>>  Bellevue, WA  98006
>>  (425) 746-6274
>>  
>> www.opencirclecompany.com
>> * * ========================================================== 
>> OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU ------------------------------ To 
>> subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of 
>> oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu: 
>> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about 
>> OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: 
>> http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
>  * * ========================================================== 
> OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU ------------------------------ To 
> subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of 
> oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu: 
> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about 
> OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: 
> http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist * * 
> ========================================================== 
> OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU ------------------------------ To 
> subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of 
> oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu: 
> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about 
> OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: 
> http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
*
*
==========================================================
OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
------------------------------
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html

To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist

*
*
==========================================================
OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
------------------------------
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html

To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist

*
*
==========================================================
OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
------------------------------
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html

To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist

*
*
==========================================================
OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
------------------------------
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html

To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist

>From  Sun Aug 28 22:15:22 2005
Message-Id: <SUN.28.AUG.2005.221522.0700.>
Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 22:15:22 -0700
Reply-To: mrguess at integralvisioning.org
To: OSLIST <OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>
From: Mr Guess <mrguess at integralvisioning.org>
Subject: Re: An OS "critique" and response
In-Reply-To: <000b01c5aab1$61378910$0200a8c0 at VAIO>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

btw - I am not an expert or associate or anything else of Integral
theory, or SD. Or OST. Im more of a non-specialist hack who generally
likes to live things in order to know them, and kinda suddenly wish I
hadn't spoken into such a loud microphone on all this. 

Besides, I've been an angry villager myself from time to time. Here and
there. blush

anyway
I think one of Wilber's most important and intitially confusing as heck
contributions thus far has been the perspectival all quadrants all lines
(AQAL, which includes all waves all streams all types, etc...). 

as another highly useful measuring gizmo 

and because I think it really gracefully reintroduces the notion of a
functioning engine of tiered hierarchies (such as they are in nature or
an automobile), not only as it pertains to an actual practice and
experiential unfolding along whatever chain of being there simply is,
but as I/it/we grow and evolve equally in our everpresent inner, outer,
collective and individual perspectives. Unfolding, further unpacking a
language that can hold our unfolding perspectives of history and
visionary thinking. 

And that's just a wild stabatit, as they they, on my part

Then integrate the likes of Howard Gardener's multiple lines of
intelligence, where, we can be aware of how each and everyone of our
many lines of intelligence also grow and unfold along some chain of
being, both individually and collectively, inwardly and outwardly, and
in their ascending and descending and expanding waves, and what not. 

And then there is the distinction between temporary states and permenant
stages of consciousness this whole time, such as peak and plateau
experiences. Also, focusing not only on integrating OST sessions live,
but dialogue forms and styles from an increasingly exotic blend of some
of the world's deepest traditions, then sits them down with a wide
variety of some of the most modern and post-modern thinkers and cultural
creatives on the planet...often simply cuz they "showed up and wanted to
talk... 

Ummm...a lot of things I missed

plug em in and turn em up, I say..lol
OST and II, along with other things

Peace, 
Todd

-----Original Message-----
From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Karen
Sella
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 7:45 PM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: An OS "critique" and response

Hi Tree,

Although I can appreciate the sentiments expressed in your response to
SD/Integral folks who are too simplistic/generalist and smug in their
use of Integral/SDi developmental theories, as someone who appreciates
and participates in the Integral and SDi communities, as well as OS, I
want to assure you that there are "grown-ups" among the SD/Wilberites :)

Warm regards,
Karen

Karen Sella
www.luminacoaching.com
206.780.2998

-----Original Message-----
From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Tree
Fitzpatrick
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 7:07 PM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: An OS "critique" and response

I echo Tim Weidman's response to Peggy's posts.

I remind this list that Wilber's spin on Spiral Dynamics significantly
distorts the Spiral Dynamics model.  Wilber has done a disservice to
the great work embedded in Spiral Dynamics by getting so many of his
followers to denigrate the green meme.  It creeps me out to see people
lumping people and systems into the green meme, making the designation
of 'green meme' similar to namecalling in a school yard.  I want to
tell all those SD/Wilberites to grow up.

Like Tim, I hate the way SD/Wilberites engage in one-upman-ship, but I
am not above namecalling myself.

Steve Banks must be below the green meme if he experienced three Open
Space events and wrongly concluded that Open Space is green meme. 
Surely everyone on this list knows that Open Space fans are highly
evolved, t-2 at a minimum and probably higher.  He is obviously
threatened by the advanced tool that is Open Space, eh?!

Your response is excellent, Peggy, although Banks  didn't really
deserve a reasoned response.

*
*
==========================================================
OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
------------------------------
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html

To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist

*
*
==========================================================
OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
------------------------------
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html

To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist

*
*
==========================================================
OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
------------------------------
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html

To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist

>From  Mon Aug 29 00:27:27 2005
Message-Id: <MON.29.AUG.2005.002727.0500.>
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 00:27:27 -0500
Reply-To: mherman at globalchicago.net
To: OSLIST <OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>
From: Michael Herman <mjherman at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: An OS "critique" and response
In-Reply-To: <002f01c5ac58$a8120560$19b60048 at toddc1a1bde32d>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

you might enjoy this spin on wilber and open space, todd:

http://www.globalchicago.net/wiki/wiki.cgi?InvitingOrganizationEmerges

it's got the theory of wilber and an addendum with real world
observations (very loosely) in teh empirical mode of observation out
of which SD arose, all wrapped around the theme of organization. 
anyway, from the way you run words and ideas together, i htink you'll
appreciate the flow of it, if nothing else.

and your line about "kinda suddenly wish..." has to be one of the most
open, honest, personal and peacemaking lines i've ever read in nine
years of this list, in the midst of a big conversation.  i think it
must be the perfect color to go with everything here!

michael

On 8/29/05, Mr Guess <mrguess at integralvisioning.org> wrote:
> btw - I am not an expert or associate or anything else of Integral
> theory, or SD. Or OST. Im more of a non-specialist hack who generally
> likes to live things in order to know them, and kinda suddenly wish I
> hadn't spoken into such a loud microphone on all this.
> 
> Besides, I've been an angry villager myself from time to time. Here and
> there. blush
> 
> anyway
> I think one of Wilber's most important and intitially confusing as heck
> contributions thus far has been the perspectival all quadrants all lines
> (AQAL, which includes all waves all streams all types, etc...).
> 
> as another highly useful measuring gizmo
> 
> and because I think it really gracefully reintroduces the notion of a
> functioning engine of tiered hierarchies (such as they are in nature or
> an automobile), not only as it pertains to an actual practice and
> experiential unfolding along whatever chain of being there simply is,
> but as I/it/we grow and evolve equally in our everpresent inner, outer,
> collective and individual perspectives. Unfolding, further unpacking a
> language that can hold our unfolding perspectives of history and
> visionary thinking.
> 
> And that's just a wild stabatit, as they they, on my part
> 
> Then integrate the likes of Howard Gardener's multiple lines of
> intelligence, where, we can be aware of how each and everyone of our
> many lines of intelligence also grow and unfold along some chain of
> being, both individually and collectively, inwardly and outwardly, and
> in their ascending and descending and expanding waves, and what not.
> 
> And then there is the distinction between temporary states and permenant
> stages of consciousness this whole time, such as peak and plateau
> experiences. Also, focusing not only on integrating OST sessions live,
> but dialogue forms and styles from an increasingly exotic blend of some
> of the world's deepest traditions, then sits them down with a wide
> variety of some of the most modern and post-modern thinkers and cultural
> creatives on the planet...often simply cuz they "showed up and wanted to
> talk...
> 
> Ummm...a lot of things I missed
> 
> plug em in and turn em up, I say..lol
> OST and II, along with other things
> 
> Peace,
> Todd
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Karen
> Sella
> Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 7:45 PM
> To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> Subject: Re: An OS "critique" and response
> 
> Hi Tree,
> 
> Although I can appreciate the sentiments expressed in your response to
> SD/Integral folks who are too simplistic/generalist and smug in their
> use of Integral/SDi developmental theories, as someone who appreciates
> and participates in the Integral and SDi communities, as well as OS, I
> want to assure you that there are "grown-ups" among the SD/Wilberites :)
> 
> Warm regards,
> Karen
> 
> 
> Karen Sella
> www.luminacoaching.com
> 206.780.2998
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Tree
> Fitzpatrick
> Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 7:07 PM
> To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> Subject: Re: An OS "critique" and response
> 
> I echo Tim Weidman's response to Peggy's posts.
> 
> I remind this list that Wilber's spin on Spiral Dynamics significantly
> distorts the Spiral Dynamics model.  Wilber has done a disservice to
> the great work embedded in Spiral Dynamics by getting so many of his
> followers to denigrate the green meme.  It creeps me out to see people
> lumping people and systems into the green meme, making the designation
> of 'green meme' similar to namecalling in a school yard.  I want to
> tell all those SD/Wilberites to grow up.
> 
> Like Tim, I hate the way SD/Wilberites engage in one-upman-ship, but I
> am not above namecalling myself.
> 
> Steve Banks must be below the green meme if he experienced three Open
> Space events and wrongly concluded that Open Space is green meme.
> Surely everyone on this list knows that Open Space fans are highly
> evolved, t-2 at a minimum and probably higher.  He is obviously
> threatened by the advanced tool that is Open Space, eh?!
> 
> Your response is excellent, Peggy, although Banks  didn't really
> deserve a reasoned response.
> 
> *
> *
> ==========================================================
> OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> ------------------------------
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
> view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html
> 
> To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
> http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
> 
> *
> *
> ==========================================================
> OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> ------------------------------
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
> view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html
> 
> To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
> http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
> 
> *
> *
> ==========================================================
> OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> ------------------------------
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
> view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html
> 
> To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
> http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
> 

-- 

Michael Herman
Executive Facilitator
http://www.michaelherman.com

Getting the most important things done, 
in the easiest possible ways.

*
*
==========================================================
OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
------------------------------
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html

To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist