what I am prepared to engage in and what I am not prepared to engage (warning, long)

Nicolai el.nicolai at web.de
Tue Mar 30 16:37:35 PST 2004


Hallo Birgitt,
First, I wanted to say something about my person, as I'm quite new to the
list. My name is Nicolai von Ertzdorff. I am very interested in any kind of
human relationship and forms of organization, approaching to individual and
group phenomenon in (inter)cultural,social, structural and economical
aspects. Actually, I am participating in the development of a quite
democratic (I hope) 3-phase process-acompanying method, which tries to
reinforce the needs of a variety of different (basically selforganised)
groups, working on very different aspects of the same global aim for a
longer time.

I just had been following the discussion.So I think, I understand you well
in most aspects. I really wondered about that question, whether the
archieved mails can be accessed by anyone typing in some key words in a
searching machine, like google - and I checked it out.- the only thing, I
freely could access, had been the FAQ's.. Obviously, there are more than 10
pages full of links about your person - but not referred to this OS-List.
So, are you shure, that the archieves of this list can be accessed by
anyone, just typing in some words? - Did I something wrong, because it
didn't work at all?

In my opinion, this archieve and searching-machine question could affect
very different themes:
- Security: I would not be really happy getting finally some hundred
spam-mails a day, just because anybody, who is not in the list can check out
my email-account.
As anybody will be accepted in the list anonymously, it could happen also,
that some spammers just profits from the list, collecting mail-accounts
(once, because of this, I had to dissolve an account) ...
But this is not so easy to avoid. There are other networklists, you have to
apply for. In my opinion, frequently, this is not a very inclusice and
inviting procedure.
So it's rather a question of spammers democratic conscience, instead of list
groups - Well, till now, I did not get spam-mails. :-))

- Actitud toward communication and idea of the group.
Who are we? - Once in another list I felt a little bit blocked, just because
orignally we used it, as it was supposed to, for developing something
openly, integrating anybody, who was interested in - and finally we had
people in the list, who just became evident because of some stupid
complaints, invading a constructive space because nobody knew them. So, in
this time, I felt the desire to deal with concrete, personal partners, to
have just a list of anybody in the list, with a little whois or at least
his/her name, because it resulted very difficult to really develop something
new openly, only knowing few in a anonymous list. Know, I am calm and
regained my sense of humour and feel comfortable about that list.
It's not for taking decissions but for information and exchange.
Besides, I do not care very much about being explicitely carefully. - It
came out some time ago, that somebody, which was supposed to be the CIA
(supposed by the german authorities) even put microphones in almost any room
of the german parlament, but we do not care too much about at all. (What do
you expect from an organism, which was not even able to find the chinese
embassy on a map..)
For me, it's just the opposite: Know we have the possibillity to express us
and this will change a lot.The more people will express, listen and feel,
the clearer and more sensitive we will get.(So, I think, this is, why there
are those, who try to manipulate information, nurish fear and destruct
confidence on grown groups, like families, substituting them by
pseudo-common-sense-appealed pseudo-groups. It was led to perfection by the
nazis and it took us quit a lot of time to change it..

But there remains the question about

- democratic participation.
Of course, democratic processes always require participation.-But is the so
called participation democratic?
Should decisions be taken on behalf of the few, who express themselves? So,
I have some types of different opinions, but no idea about relational
distribution...
In this case, it would have been very easy making decisions by my own,
empowering one of the few expressed ideas by claiming to be the representant
of many (who do not say one word, of course - even not, if they feel like
victims in any way..)
Well, finally, I am not shure if this list or any list really could be used
as a democratic decission tool. I like it as it is, just as a
communication-forum, even making jokes about "Mr.Dubya" (He always makes me
think about the question, how democratic election and decission processes
are. Can a hierarchical election and decission system be democratic?
Means a hierarchy-free space also beeing free of conflicts? -))

One of the very first ideas, which I related, when I made my first
experiences with OST, was the work of a friend, who worked for pvl(public
voice lab) in vienna on e-democracy-projects. -Really an interesting
project:

EDEN ­ Electronic Democracy European Network
http://www.edentool.org/partners.htm

So, how democratic is democracy? And is it bottom-up or bottom-down? :-)))
For me, really a good question, asking for democratic structures (not only)
in the OS-web structure. Besides,some month ago, I heard something  about
virtual OS -software. Is this just a fake, or true?


And last not least, there is the question about

- copyright-protection on internet. -Practically not possible at all. Its
very easy, just to take, what you want, change three words and that¹s it.
But it's very easy to be discovered as "fake" also. - Specially, if the
author of the original is known in the whole world (wide web)..Apart of not
beeing very happy about the way, how the decission about creating the
archieves was taken, I hope, you did not feel like having expierienced any
disadvantage because of the list' archieve.

This inspiring discussion invites me strongly to observe and to reflect
about my personal feelings, about structures,my actitud, my (mental,
political and spirtual) environment, and my interaction.
To reflect about velocity, rhythm of transformation processes, beeing in
flow and about creativity. And of course, about democratic decissions.

Thank you.

With kind regards,
Nicolai



E.Motion Gestaltungswerkstatt
Munich










on 30.03.2004 21:56 Uhr, Birgitt Williams at birgitt at mindspring.com wrote:

> Michael ,
> thank you for your responses. I note in your comments that you are telling
> me to raise my concerns with my own self and not with others, however I
> choose to post to the list.
>
> And to all who are interested in this conversation, thank you for your
> contributions,
>
> To a degree, what I was commenting about and asking doesn't appear to have
> been clear. Once I got used to the idea of archives, which I was not at all
> happy about having for our list, I felt a sense of comfort that those who
> accessed them had to subscribe to our list, to our community on this list.
> And from the time that I knew of the archives, I have been much less open in
> what I have written to this valuable community.
>
> What has changed, and what I am addressing now is that you and some others
> have decided to open the archives of the list to the worldwide web in a
> bigger way that can now be searched by key words by search engines. So, our
> list archives pop up via a google search and so on. I am very very opposed
> to this in relation to archives of previous conversations.
>
> To me, an ingredient of what was missing was a decision making process on
> this list of members past and present who are in the archives with their
> comments. The decision was made by a few on behalf of us all. I find it so
> awkward that we do not have democratic processes for our decision making on
> this list. Decisions, whether right for us or not, have consistently been
> made by a few and those few have not identified themselves to this list. It
> seems to me to be a big vacuum that does not stand forth in its
> accountability to us. Regarding this decision to open our archives to be
> searchable to the world wide web----could those who made this decision on
> our behalf without a decision making process by the community please let us
> know who they are. I would like to know who makes the decisions on behalf of
> the community.
>
> I am in favor of processes that are inclusive. I consider OST to be an
> inclusive process. Yet, within OST, people cannot be 'anyonymous'. If they
> wish to show their passion by posting a topic, they must put their name to
> it. I think archives in which people must subscribe to the list thereby
> putting their name to their passion and letting us know who they are is
> inclusive. We have never excluded anyone in the world from doing so.
>
> Before I knew that we had archives, I wrote from the heart, very personally.
> Then came the announcement about archives. I continued to write, but with
> less heart. Then came the announcement that anything that had been written
> can now be searchable by anyone on the whole web through a web search of key
> words. This changes the terms by which we were all participating in this
> community not only of the present but of the past. There are many people who
> wrote client stories, I am sure without permission of the client stories to
> be public stories that are searchable. There are frequent comments on this
> list of a negative nature towards leaders. I don't believe that the people
> who wrote those kind of comments would want that to be a matter of being
> searched out on the web. I truly believe that all those who have contributed
> to the archives should be asked whether they are in agreement with this
> move.
>
> If a decision to have our postings searchable on the world wide web is made,
> at this time, then it seems to me that the decison ought to be made that
> establishes a new context and what Chris Weaver refers to as purpose for
> this community and that this then allows all people to decide whether they
> want to post messages and to be very careful to say what they want very
> professionally.
>
> As for what my own material is available for and what it is not available
> for, I do have a say about that. I contributed to this list which was
> identified to me as a community to which people entered by subscribing. I
> contributed on those terms. I DID NOT contribute to a list in which my
> material would be archived. I then wrestled with that decision (also not
> made through any democratic or community process). And now, I am very clear
> that I DID NOT contribute to this list/this community of subscribers to the
> list for the benefit of archives that could be searchable by search engines
> on the web. My material is simply not available for this. I withhold
> permission for it to be used in this way. It is meant for the OS list
> community and anyone who will take the responsibility to subscribe.
>
> Think of it for all of you who have contributed. Even think about times when
> someone was looking for someone else's e-mail address and you posted it to
> the list---that person's e-mail address with or without his/her permission
> is now out there for all to access including the marketers that send out
> endless spam mail. There are potential lawsuits in some of this, in the
> naming of client groups and so on.
>
> If a decision is made that from here on in our comments beginning with
> comments made today are not only archived but they are to be available out
> through the search engines of the web, then we all know the terms of our
> engagement. And can make decisions about participation accordingly. If that
> meets the needs for inclusivity as the community sees it, so be it.
>
> Archives of the past should not be made available to the search engines. And
> again, I say that I feel powerless to do anything about this decision, the
> decision has been made by a few power people on behalf of our community
> without consultation with the community, and I knew when I posted about this
> that I was putting myself in a state of great vulnerability on this list. I
> thank those of you who were gentle with this vulnerability and recognized
> it. Although I feel powerless to do anything about the decisions made on
> behalf of the community, the same is not true for my own contributions and
> whether they can or cannot be included in those very public archives.
>
> Birgitt
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU]On Behalf Of Michael
> Herman
> Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 12:12 AM
> To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> Subject: Re: what I am prepared to engage in and what I am not prepared
> to engage in with my energy--the archives
>
>
> dear birgitt,
>
> per your request, i am publishing here the entire list of people -- as
> you call them, the small group of people in power -- who have been
> responsible for the global and public distribution of your writing via
> the OSLIST email listserve and worldwide web, 1996 to the present:
>
> 1. Birgitt Williams, birgitt at mindspring.com
>
> over the years, the people listed here have posted countless messages to
> the list.  all written by you, and yes some of them seemed rather
> personal.  i know that you did not know that your words were being made
> public, even though they were being mailed to hundreds of strangers
> around the world.
>
> years ago, when the existence of the public archive system was
> discovered by you, your objection was raised and noted... but the people
> listed above continued to use their power publish your words to the list
> and into those darned public archives.  those archives have always been
> public, and have always been available to stranger people and strange
> crawlers, none of whom have ever had to announce their presence to you
> or anyone else.
>
> as for the givens here on the list... the only given that we have ever
> had is that if you email something wise and professional or deeply
> personal to several hundred strangers around the world, you don't and
> can't have any idea where or when it will turn up next.  and this rule
> was not made by anyone in power and not imposed on anyone.
>
> and as for being copyrighted and quoted out of context... as far as i
> know, a copyright does not protect you from being quoted.  it protects
> you from having your entire work or major chunks of it reproduced in
> full, or quoted in such a way that your quotes make up a significant
> chunk of work that was then claimed or sold as the work of another.
> simple quoting of and reference to copyrighted material is absolutely
> legal. and of course it happens all the time.  sometimes it even is done
> badly or out of context, but it only runs afoul of the law when what is
> quoted is a substantial portion of your work or makes up a substantial
> portion of a reproduction for which somebody else claims credit.  so
> your declaration of copyrighting is obviously heartfelt, but also
> irrelevent... unless someone chooses to publish special a book of your
> postings.  i'll bet that doesn't happen.  and even if that did happen,
> at least there would be plenty of context.
>
> please address all future questions, concerns, legal-sounding threats
> and general comments about the public distribution of your writing to
> the powerful people listed above.  i join you in holding them fully
> responsible for the distribution of your work and i'm glad to know that
> from now on, you will be in full control of all of your words.  i hope
> that you will find a way to keep giving them to the world.
>
> thanks very much for your frequent kind words, your quick
> acknowledgement the volunteer work i do to maintain our global community
> web presence, your living example of generous community contribution and
> the wisdom of your letting go with grace.
>
> with best wishes for peace,
>
> michael herman
>
> p.s. thanks too for your linking to our community sites from your site
> at "OpenSpaceTechnology.com."  that seems important as
> "OpenSpaceTechnology.com" might often be the first place people would
> look to find the worldwide community of openspacers.  so thank you for
> generously redirecting them to the rest of us!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Birgitt Williams wrote:
>
>> Dear friends and colleagues on the list,
>> I have done considerable thinking and meditating about the existence of the
>> archives of this list and about the fact that the list is now open to being
>> searchable through the world wide web. It appears that I cannot do anything
>> about the decisions made. I am sad that we do not have a democratic process
>> in this community for decision making and I am sad that decisions are made
>> on behalf of a community by a few. Those decisions are then recorded in the
>> FAQ's and captured as what appear to be the 'givens' for this community.
>>
>> I have read a number of items regarding building community for list serves,
>> the importance of protection and safety for its members so that the
>> community is a real community. I am deeply saddened that through the
> opening
>> of our list to world wide web in the way that it has been opened now by a
>> decision made by someone who has the power to do this on our behalf without
>> a decision making process within the community, that in my opinion we no
>> longer have a community. People can access our conversations without ever
>> taking the responsibility of identifying themselves to us. There is no
> equal
>> energy exchange between these people and those who contribute to the list
> by
>> participating in community either as speakers or listening learners. Also,
>> when our list archives are accessible through the search engines on the
> www,
>> our e-mail addresses are now available to the public whether we want them
> to
>> be or not. And as you all know, this means that these addresses are now
>> likely to be 'harvested' by the spiders who 'harvest' e-mail addresses to
>> send out spam mail to them. We have been opened to this and without the
>> community permission. From my perspective, any belief that there is now a
>> community is an illusion. I have invested a lot of my time, energy, heart
> in
>> contributions to the list for many years in my passion about what I
> believed
>> was an important community. I am so so sad at this violation.
>>
>> Some years ago, on the list, I was made aware that the list had archives
> and
>> it was happily announced at the time that the archives could be accessed by
>> anyone on the list. I was fairly unfamiliar at the time with how all of
> this
>> worked and I was deeply disturbed that there were archives and I spoke
>> against them at the time, only to be told by Harrison and others that I was
>> naive if I had assumed there were no archives captured for the list.  I
>> noted for myself that everyone who accessed the archives had to sign in to
>> the list, and so I fell silent on the subject thinking that in a very arms
>> length way, these people, by signing in to the list to get to the archives
>> were also part of the list.
>>
>> Over time, most people on the list who used my materials from the list also
>> used great professional courtesy and sent me a note about the intended use
>> to get my permission, knowing that once words are written, it is like a
>> copyright on those words. I was grateful to these people. I always gave
>> permission to use my words but sometimes I asked for a change to include
>> more context so that my words kept the same meaning that I intended them to
>> have by being kept in the context in which they were written. When my words
>> have been used out of context by people who did not have the professional
>> courtesy of letting me know they were using them and indeed publishing
> them,
>> that was another situation and one that I haven't known how to deal with.
>>
>> For me, the recent announcement by Michael Herman that the archives are now
>> open to be searchable on the world wide web was one to which I immediately
>> expressed my dismay. I realize that I cannot change what is being done by
>> people who have power on our behalf. I don't even know who they are because
>> they have never identified themselves as our executive or some such. But,
>> they appear to be the decison makers.
>>
>> I cannot do anything to change this situation that has troubled me so much.
>> I can however express my own needs very very clearly so that they are not
>> misunderstood. I have been a significant contributor to this community
>> through this list almost since it began. I did this to support this
>> community to the best of my ability and to do my part in assisting with the
>> building of this community to the best of my ability. I didn't do this to
>> assist in the creation of a data base that would be used by researchers and
>> others. My vested interest was in community support and community
>> strengthening. Archives of this list have been kept  and it has been
> without
>> my permission to keep archives of my writing and they have been kept
> without
>> letting us know from the beginning that a 'given' of this list was to have
>> archives. Archives of this which includes my contributions have now been
>> opened to the worldwide web and its search engines without my permission to
>> use my contributions in this way.
>>
>> I am hereby giving notice to those who have made this decision that my
>> contributions are copyrighted and that anyone using my contributions to the
>> world wide web in any paper, article, thesis, or book that they are writing
>> must request my permission to do so. I am holding those who made my
>> contributions available to the search engines of the worldwide web
>> accountable for my copyrighted material which I made available for one
>> purpose and is now being used for another purpose to which I did not agree.
>> I am deeply concerned that my materials be quoted by noting the context in
>> which they are written and not pulled apart piecemeal creating the illusion
>> that I have said or implied something that I did not say or imply. I
> request
>> that those on this list who have made the decision to put make our archives
>> available to the world wide web search engines identify themselves to the
>> list so that I know who the decision makers on this list are and so that I
>> know who to hold accountable.
>>
>> I am also deeply concerned that my sharing from the heart including sharing
>> about my personal life which I did a lot in the early days of this
> community
>> has become available to others for whom it was not written, to now read.
> In
>> my research, I have discovered that most designs for lists intended for
>> community never violate that community. I am not naive to have made
>> assumptions that we were a community and that our sharing was for our
>> community. This is a clear situation of 'givens' being made along the
> way,on
>> behalf of a community, by a few in power. Again, this information is
>> copyrighted and permission must be asked of me to publish this information
>> in any way. Again, I am holding the decision makers on this list who have
>> made my contributions to this list community available to search engines on
>> the world wide web accountable for the  protection of my copyrighted
>> material.
>>
>> I have loved this list community as an important part of my life for a long
>> time. It is my hope that there will be some understanding of what I am
>> prepared to engage in and what I am not prepared to engage in with my
> energy
>> and that my decision about the materials that I have submitted to the list
>> over the years falls within my definition for myself of what I am available
>> for and what I am not. I am available to contribute to this community.
>>
>> Birgitt Williams
>> ---
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>>
>
> --
>
> Michael Herman
> Michael Herman Associates
> 300 West North Avenue #1105
> Chicago IL 60610 USA
> (312) 280-7838
>
> http://www.michaelherman.com - consulting & publications
> http://www.globalchicago.net - laboratory & playground
> http://www.openspaceworld.org - worldwide open space
>
> ...inviting organization into movement
>
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