Letting go; easy to say...

Wed Aug 13 07:40:00 PDT 2003

Toke,

how beautiful - thank you.

Marei

"Toke Paludan Møller - InterChange" <toke at interchange.dk> schrieb:
> Dear Marei.
>
>
> thanks for the honesty about the hardship and art of letting
> go.....easy or hard - it is good to start....
>
> here I will offer a morning poem fom the lake that I live by.
>
>
> Oh - the letting go
> to enter new spaces in me
> and with you
> who are around
>
> Oh the letting go
> a door to become present
> to enter the flow
> of more letting go
>
> Oh the letting go
> what a silent show
> of life on the go
> with more letting go
>
> Oh to let go
> of all the letting go
> and just to be
> me
>
>
> looking forward to see you at the OSonOs space soon
>
> best greetings
>
> - toke
>
> *******
>
> >Dear Mike,
> >
> >thank for letting go "your fears of of writing your personal
> >thoughts in a public domain". You've encouraged me to let go my fear
> >of writing to a group of people, all so much more experienced in
> >open space than me - and furthermore - to write in a foreign
> >language.
> >
> >I am following the exchange on the list for about six weeks now and
> >I have received so many enriching thoughts of you writers. But the
> >best is this valuing, honoring energy I perceive. And I want to
> >thank you all for sharing this with me.
> >
> >"This letting go thing" really seems to be it. I decided to stop
> >fighting some months ago (what I did the last 36 years in one way or
> >the other). And I started to believe that the "right" way is the
> >easy one. (On the other hand the easy way sometimes still seems to
> >be the hardest for me - because it demands to let go). So, not that
> >I am totally convinced by now but I do trust more and more every day.
> >
> >I am looking forward to having more of this energy in Svenmark and
> >to meet all who are coming there,
> >my best wishes for your journey,
> >
> >Marei
> >
> >
> >OSLIST <OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU> schrieb am 08.08.03 04:29:06:
> >
> >G'day Chris today you wrote: Once when I was facilitating a group of
> >First Nations people from all over British Columbia and we were
> >doing action planning, I invited the group to "come forward to the
> >centre of the circle, grab five dots and indicate where your passion
> >lay."  Two older women from the Carrier Nation started laughing.  In
> >the Carrier language "do't" (which sounds very much like "dot") is a
> >very rude term for female anatomy.  They had a moment of thrilling
> >confusion until they figured out what I REALLY meant!  Chris  Man
> >you have some great stories; this is priceless!!! You could've had
> >some real super passionate people on your hands there! My workmates
> >and I had an Open Space workshop last week facilitated by Daniel
> >Lebel. Did we get passionate when it came to convergence. Freedom
> >shock divided the group. Those in shock were not going to give up
> >their total belief that they had no power to effect change except
> >through the usual closed space channels.  Others of!
> >   us, and I was a participant, were exasperated with their lack of
> >responsiveness. Eventually after a bit of hollering someone
> >announced they were going to champion an issue. The champions
> >grabbed their issues and convened meetings,  the rest formed a
> >circle and championed freedom shock, and the whole futility of the
> >exercise because nothing was going to change! It was a sobering
> >experience for me, and a good reminder of the amazing transformation
> >that is required of our organisations and systems if they are ever
> >going to be open space! I was reading some old university notes
> >about soft systems methodology.  Heck open space can do in three
> >days what an encyclopedic dissertation and months of meetings could
> >never do.  The key seems to be this letting go thing.  Which while
> >easily said is probably the greatest lesson I have learned in my
> >short life. Not to say I have "arrived" yet. It took some pretty
> >major life threatening convincing before I could accept life on
> >life's terms!
> >   and then let my version of reality go. It's a daily journey. Write no
> >w
> >  of writing my personal thoughts in a public domain. I'd be keen to
> >hear what the rest of you think? All the BestMike Copeland
> >
> >
> >
> >---
> >CHRIS CORRIGAN
> >Bowen Island, BC, Canada
> >http://www.chriscorrigan.com
> >chris at chriscorrigan.com
> >
> >(604) 947-9236
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Lucy Geão
> >Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 7:43 PM
> >To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> >Subject: Res: Languages and Translations (was: Languages in Europe...)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Joelle, artur (and all too)
> >
> >
> >
> >do not be worried,  the word "paper" has differents meanings as
> >artur showed but "role" is used so frequently that I am almost sure
> >that the brazilian people attending the event understood the
> >confusion between  what the translator did and what you was really
> >intending to say and , possibly, smiled.
> >
> >
> >
> >lucy
> >
> >
> >
> >-------Mensagem original-------
> >
> >
> >
> >De: OSLIST
> >
> >Data: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 19:48:30
> >
> >Para: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> >
> >Assunto: Languages and Translations (was: Languages in Europe...)
> >
> >
> >
> >Hi Joelle and Lucy (and all)
> >
> >
> >
> >Joelle wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>Artur-- (...)
> >
> >>I was quite interested to observe that the Brazilians listed only roles of
> >
> >>family and relationships. I suspect, that this is because family and
> >
> >>interpersonal relationships are far more important in Latin cultures. But
> >
> >>I also wonder
> >
> >>if the word which was used to translate "roles," (I think something like
> >
> >>"rolas," ) might have a more-specific meaning in Portugese, so the
> >
> >>response might
> >
> >>have been shaped by the word that was used. What do you think?
> >
> >
> >
> >And Lucy replyied:
> >
> >
> >
> >>joelle, the translation is really an important detail in any place of the
> >
> >>word. really the bad translation of "role" transformed a word that means
> >
> >>"paper" or "part of" (he plays the part of the monster) into a swearword
> >
> >>used for some cheap persons speaking about penis. complicated, you see?
> >
> >
> >
> >This is really an amazing story about languages and translations. May I use
> >
> >that story for other purposes and quote you both?
> >
> >
> >
> >I would like to add some comments:
> >
> >
> >
> >1. I have decided to wait for an eventual answer from Lucy, as I had the
> >
> >idea that "rola" could have in Brasil this slang meaning, but I was not
> >
> >sure. "rola" is indeed a white bird (turtle-dove, says my Dictionary) that
> >
> >is used in slang Portugues to refer only to "female brests", but I was
> >
> >almost sure of once hearing it in Brasil with the meaning Lucy clarified.
> >
> >
> >
> >2. This contains other lessons. Translators are often not very good,
> >
> >especially if they don't know the subject they are trying to traslate. And
> >
> >I have noticed often that, in such cases, they don't say "I can't translate
> >
> >that". They will chose - especially in oral translation" - a "similar
> >
> >word". In this case with devastating effects... I suposed that the
> >
> >Brasilians, confused, tryed to give an answer... as they could... So, I
> >
> >suspect your conclusion, was not necessarily correct, Joelle.
> >
> >
> >
> >3. But even if the translator knows the meaning of the word he/she can
> >
> >often do a "correct
> >
> >word-translation" that is still useless. "Role" translates into Portugues,
> >
> >as Lucy pointed out, as "papél", plural "papéis" (the Spanish "papeles").
> >
> >The point is that "papel" also means "paper", like in "a sheet of paper". I
> >
> >wonder what the Brasilians would answer to this possibility, namely if they
> >
> >were low class and never heard of "papeis" in this sense....
> >
> >
> >
> >4. Contextual translation, done by someone that knows the subject, would
> >
> >understant the what should be translated was not "roles" but "social roles"
> >
> >giving "papéis sociais" that can not, of course, be confused with sheets of
> >
> >papers.
> >
> >
> >
> >5. Now imagine what would happen if this was a conversation between an Arab
> >
> >and a Juif mediated by an American President, with the help of a translator
> >
> >without an "absolutely perfect knowledge" of BOTH languages. Terrible, I
> >
> >suspect.
> >
> >
> >
> >6. My conclusion - if you era "broadcasting" or publishing a book, good
> >
> >traslations can be useful
> >
> >(like in the Brasilian translation of the User's Guide).. But to mediate
> >
> >"conversations", translations are NEVER a replacement for bi-linguism.
> >
> >
> >
> >7: I think that people giving training in a foreign language in a different
> >
> >country, when that training must be mediated by a translater, must always
> >
> >ask very seriously what are the qualifications of the translator in the
> >
> >subject of the training and not only the "translation qualification" in
> >
> >other subjects.
> >
> >
> >
> >8. I am sure that I could do a good translation of English to Portuguese in
> >
> >subjects like management or information systems. But I am affraid to
> >
> >confess, Joelle, that I would be unable to transslate one of your poems, as
> >
> >I don't understand poetry in English. And I could very well think that a
> >
> >turtle-dove was a turtle of some special species...
> >
> >
> >
> >Regards
> >
> >
> >
> >Artur
> >
> >
> >
> >*
> >
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> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> --
> "Bone heavy - spirit light - heart even - intention far."
> Toke Paludan Møller, InterChange, Dialogue Architects - Learning
> Space hosts - by the river at Days like this, http://www.days.dk/
> Gudenåvej 60, Voervadsbro, 8660 Skanderborg, Phone +45 702013 35   -
> Mobile  +45 2616 6919  http://www.interchange.dk  Home office at the
> lake - Stengaardsvej 5 A,   8600 Silkeborg, Denmark
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