Letting go; easy to say...

Sat Aug 9 09:25:07 PDT 2003

Dear Mike,

thank for letting go "your fears of of writing your personal thoughts in a public domain". You've encouraged me to let go my fear of writing to a group of people, all so much more experienced in open space than me - and furthermore - to write in a foreign language.

I am following the exchange on the list for about six weeks now and I have received so many enriching thoughts of you writers. But the best is this valuing, honoring energy I perceive. And I want to thank you all for sharing this with me.

"This letting go thing" really seems to be it. I decided to stop fighting some months ago (what I did the last 36 years in one way or the other). And I started to believe that the "right" way is the easy one. (On the other hand the easy way sometimes still seems to be the hardest for me - because it demands to let go). So, not that I am totally convinced by now but I do trust more and more every day.

I am looking forward to having more of this energy in Svenmark and to meet all who are coming there,
my best wishes for your journey,

Marei

OSLIST <OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU> schrieb am 08.08.03 04:29:06:

G'day Chris today you wrote: Once when I was facilitating a group of First Nations people from all over British Columbia and we were doing action planning, I invited the group to "come forward to the centre of the circle, grab five dots and indicate where your passion lay."  Two older women from the Carrier Nation started laughing.  In the Carrier language "do't" (which sounds very much like "dot") is a very rude term for female anatomy.  They had a moment of thrilling confusion until they figured out what I REALLY meant!  Chris  Man you have some great stories; this is priceless!!! You could've had some real super passionate people on your hands there! My workmates and I had an Open Space workshop last week facilitated by Daniel Lebel. Did we get passionate when it came to convergence. Freedom shock divided the group. Those in shock were not going to give up their total belief that they had no power to effect change except through the usual closed space channels.  Others of us, and I was a participant, were exasperated with their lack of responsiveness. Eventually after a bit of hollering someone announced they were going to champion an issue. The champions grabbed their issues and convened meetings,  the rest formed a circle and championed freedom shock, and the whole futility of the exercise because nothing was going to change! It was a sobering experience for me, and a good reminder of the amazing transformation that is required of our organisations and systems if they are ever going to be open space! I was reading some old university notes about soft systems methodology.  Heck open space can do in three days what an encyclopedic dissertation and months of meetings could never do.  The key seems to be this letting go thing.  Which while easily said is probably the greatest lesson I have learned in my short life. Not to say I have "arrived" yet. It took some pretty major life threatening convincing before I could accept life on life's terms and then let my version of reality go. It's a daily journey. Write now
 of writing my personal thoughts in a public domain. I'd be keen to hear what the rest of you think? All the BestMike Copeland

---
CHRIS CORRIGAN
Bowen Island, BC, Canada
http://www.chriscorrigan.com
chris at chriscorrigan.com

(604) 947-9236

-----Original Message-----
From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Lucy Geão
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 7:43 PM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Res: Languages and Translations (was: Languages in Europe...)

Joelle, artur (and all too)

do not be worried,  the word "paper" has differents meanings as artur showed but "role" is used so frequently that I am almost sure that the brazilian people attending the event understood the confusion between  what the translator did and what you was really intending to say and , possibly, smiled.

lucy

-------Mensagem original-------

De: OSLIST

Data: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 19:48:30

Para: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU

Assunto: Languages and Translations (was: Languages in Europe...)

Hi Joelle and Lucy (and all)

Joelle wrote:

>Artur-- (...)

>I was quite interested to observe that the Brazilians listed only roles of

>family and relationships. I suspect, that this is because family and

>interpersonal relationships are far more important in Latin cultures. But

>I also wonder

>if the word which was used to translate "roles," (I think something like

>"rolas," ) might have a more-specific meaning in Portugese, so the

>response might

>have been shaped by the word that was used. What do you think?

And Lucy replyied:

>joelle, the translation is really an important detail in any place of the

>word. really the bad translation of "role" transformed a word that means

>"paper" or "part of" (he plays the part of the monster) into a swearword

>used for some cheap persons speaking about penis. complicated, you see?

This is really an amazing story about languages and translations. May I use

that story for other purposes and quote you both?

I would like to add some comments:

1. I have decided to wait for an eventual answer from Lucy, as I had the

idea that "rola" could have in Brasil this slang meaning, but I was not

sure. "rola" is indeed a white bird (turtle-dove, says my Dictionary) that

is used in slang Portugues to refer only to "female brests", but I was

almost sure of once hearing it in Brasil with the meaning Lucy clarified.

2. This contains other lessons. Translators are often not very good,

especially if they don't know the subject they are trying to traslate. And

I have noticed often that, in such cases, they don't say "I can't translate

that". They will chose - especially in oral translation" - a "similar

word". In this case with devastating effects... I suposed that the

Brasilians, confused, tryed to give an answer... as they could... So, I

suspect your conclusion, was not necessarily correct, Joelle.

3. But even if the translator knows the meaning of the word he/she can

often do a "correct

word-translation" that is still useless. "Role" translates into Portugues,

as Lucy pointed out, as "papél", plural "papéis" (the Spanish "papeles").

The point is that "papel" also means "paper", like in "a sheet of paper". I

wonder what the Brasilians would answer to this possibility, namely if they

were low class and never heard of "papeis" in this sense....

4. Contextual translation, done by someone that knows the subject, would

understant the what should be translated was not "roles" but "social roles"

giving "papéis sociais" that can not, of course, be confused with sheets of

papers.

5. Now imagine what would happen if this was a conversation between an Arab

and a Juif mediated by an American President, with the help of a translator

without an "absolutely perfect knowledge" of BOTH languages. Terrible, I

suspect.

6. My conclusion - if you era "broadcasting" or publishing a book, good

traslations can be useful

(like in the Brasilian translation of the User's Guide).. But to mediate

"conversations", translations are NEVER a replacement for bi-linguism.

7: I think that people giving training in a foreign language in a different

country, when that training must be mediated by a translater, must always

ask very seriously what are the qualifications of the translator in the

subject of the training and not only the "translation qualification" in

other subjects.

8. I am sure that I could do a good translation of English to Portuguese in

subjects like management or information systems. But I am affraid to

confess, Joelle, that I would be unable to transslate one of your poems, as

I don't understand poetry in English. And I could very well think that a

turtle-dove was a turtle of some special species...

Regards

Artur

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>From  Sun Aug 10 01:10:54 2003
Message-Id: <SUN.10.AUG.2003.011054.0800.>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 01:10:54 +0800
Reply-To: pov at iinet.net.au
To: OSLIST <OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>
From: Robyn <pov at iinet.net.au>
Subject: 11 day rolling open space
In-Reply-To: <200308091625.h79GP2Q28593 at mailgate5.cinetic.de>
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Hello everyone,

My name is Robyn Williams (Perth, Western Australia). I've facilitated
for some years, gradually moving towards more invisible approaches in my
practice. Over the past couple of years, I've enjoyed excellent
mentoring from Brendan McKeegue, and attended training with Michael
Hermann last year. I've had the darndest time trying to subscribe to
this list, and just in the knick of time!

I'm organising an eleven day rolling open space as part of "Sustainable
September" a promotion/branding concept which will link a range of
sustainability related events and activities coinciding with the 3rd
World sustainability Conference to be held in my hometown of Fremantle,
Western Australia, next month. Brendan will open the space on Sept 11
and we'll close with a convergence on World Peace Day, 21 Sept.

In between, the "space" will be the city, the Marketplace and News board
will be in the public library (replicated on a webpage) supported by
posters and publicity. I'm inviting local cafes, community centres,
Council and other venues to host conversations, and expect spontaneous
action and activities to pop up in the streets. I hope that some of the
conference delegates will be drawn out into the community to join in.

Has anyone had experience in anything like this? Any tips for a new
player?

Warm regards
Robyn Williams
PERSISTENCE OF VISION
facilitates sustainability

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